Avoiding Center Cue Ball

Angle Detective

Angle Detective

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been trying a few things lately to try to improve my stroke and pocketing consistency, and I found something that may be of interest to some of you.

Many of you may have heard of the legendary golfer Ben Hogan. He once said that he never attempted to hit a straight ball. He would either hit a fade (left to right shot) or a draw (right to left). If he happened to hit a straight shot it was by mistake. His reasoning, as I understood it, was that you had to be able to predict which of the 2 spins was on the ball. A little more or a little less of one spin was more predictable than not knowing which of the 2 was being applied. So he made either a fade swing or a draw swing.

Applying that reasoning to pool got me experimenting with various swipes on the cue ball. Rather than trying to hit dead center cueball, I started by swiping in one direction away from center. I'd line up dead center, then swipe away slightly to one side depending on the shot at hand. Surprisingly, I began pocketing shots with a little more consistency than usual.

I then tried swiping the opposite way, beginning away from center and coming back towards center, but not all the way back, on the stroke. This worked well also, and seemed to give me significantly more spin on the cueball as a side effect than the away from center swipe.

I left the pool room and on the way home I wondered if swiping was even necessary for this effect. As long as you strike one side of center on the cueball, you're assured of only one spin and only one deflection direction.

So, is center ball all it's cracked up to be? If you try for center ball, often you'll miss it unless your stroke is perfectly honed. And on which side will you miss it? You don't know. But if you try for one side of center ball, even if only a quarter tip, or you swipe to one side, you're assured of one deflection and one spin.
 
Well I will concur on the golf theory. I never try and hit it straight unless I have to for some reason , I always play it one way or the other. If I'm off a bit then it's still headed in the right direction. If I try and hit it straight and am off a bit it could go anywhere. :)

However in pool , I don't have that much trouble hitting an english free ball when I need to so I'm not sure if it has as much impact there for me.
 
I tend to agree with your theory but not with the "fix" you propose.

IMHO for a shot on which I intend to use dead centerball contact, I cheat...JUST SLIGHTLY...who knows...a 16th of a tip, say to the outside... just to assure that I don't apply inside unintentionally.

Having said that, I practice A LOT on making CB contact exactly where I intend.

In one drill I use, I set up a shot using white paper reinforcers and a "laser level" to create a dead straight in shot with the CB on the head string line and an OB 1 diamond below the center pocket on the exact diagonal line to the opposite corner pocket.

That creates 3 diamonds separation between the CB and OB and 3 diamonds from the OB to the pocket so it's not a hangar of a shot.

The goal is to shoot stop shots with ZERO CB rotation after ob impact.

You can't do that without striking the OB dead center with NO sidespin and you can't get no sidespin of you are not striking the CB dead on its vertical center.

Since you need a little bottom at that distance, any side at all will sqwerve the CB and even if you pot the shot, you'll get some spin on the CB.

It ain't easy. Any 3 in a row makes me happy.

Regards,
Jim
 
This is an old idea and, I'm sorry to tell you, still bogus.

Getting 1/16" left spin when you wanted none is no worse than getting 1/16" less right spin than you wanted, especially when both are near centerball. The effect on the shot is the same.

pj
chgo
 
bluepepper said:
I then tried swiping the opposite way, beginning away from center and coming back towards center, but not all the way back, on the stroke. This worked well also, and seemed to give me significantly more spin on the cueball as a side effect than the away from center swipe.
Click to expand...
I think it just proves the old maxim that almost any method can give some temporary improvements, due mainly to the player looking more intently at the balls and concentrating on the execution.

btw. I avoid center stun shots like the plague except on near straight in shots and power shots. In the other cases stun creates large amounts of throw making angles harder to predict. I reckon it is the major cause of misses on relatively easy shots for intermediate to high level players.

Colin
 
bluepepper said:
Many of you may have heard of the legendary golfer Ben Hogan. He once said that he never attempted to hit a straight ball. He would either hit a fade (left to right shot) or a draw (right to left). If he happened to hit a straight shot it was by mistake. .
Click to expand...
I think this is fine for most golf shots, but not in putting. And most shots in pool or more closely related to putting, not driving.

That being said, there are some shots in pool that I will put a hair of spin on it even if the shot didn't require it just because accidental spin in the opposite direction would be disasterous. So, a similar concept as what Hogan describes.

Fred
 
It might also have to do with changing the way the shaft bends on impact. The outside back in swoop feels like it stabilizes the shaft.
 
I wonder how many of us assume that we hit center ball all the times we try. I recently found out I don't and have been locked in an uphill struggle to realign my stroke. My straight-in practice shots though still exhibit the same tell-tale evidence of off-center hits; after contact the c.b. is spinning to the right. I really envy those of you who hit center ball naturally, because I firmly believe it's holding me back from playing at a " b" or" b plus" level instead of "b" minus where i've been wallowing for years.
Fach Garcia told me to lighten up on my grip, and that shows some promise.
 
fan-tum said:
I wonder how many of us assume that we hit center ball all the times we try. I recently found out I don't and have been locked in an uphill struggle to realign my stroke. My straight-in practice shots though still exhibit the same tell-tale evidence of off-center hits; after contact the c.b. is spinning to the right. I really envy those of you who hit center ball naturally, because I firmly believe it's holding me back from playing at a " b" or" b plus" level instead of "b" minus where i've been wallowing for years.
Fach Garcia told me to lighten up on my grip, and that shows some promise.
Click to expand...

Get Joe Tucker's 3rd Eye trainer. Problem solved. If you can't find center ball with that, it's time to start cross-stitching pillow cases.
 
Cornerman:
...there are some shots in pool that I will put a hair of spin on it even if the shot didn't require it just because accidental spin in the opposite direction would be disasterous.
Click to expand...

Can you give an example?

pj
chgo
 
did some testing

fan-tum said:
I wonder how many of us assume that we hit center ball all the times we try. I recently found out I don't and have been locked in an uphill struggle to realign my stroke. My straight-in practice shots though still exhibit the same tell-tale evidence of off-center hits; after contact the c.b. is spinning to the right. I really envy those of you who hit center ball naturally, because I firmly believe it's holding me back from playing at a " b" or" b plus" level instead of "b" minus where i've been wallowing for years.
Fach Garcia told me to lighten up on my grip, and that shows some promise.
Click to expand...

I did some testing awhile back and found that few players even at "A" or shortstop level actually hit centerball. Their aim has adjusted to what they normally consider center ball.

I hit a hair top left myself. It's a flaw I work on.

Hu
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Can you give an example?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I think in general, any shot that you rely on picking up the spin off the cushion using center, you might as well put a touch of that english on there. I don't think it makes too much difference whether you do or don't put that english since the cueball picks up that english off the cushion anyway. But, if you put a hair of hold up by accident, then the path ends up being different. So, I go ahead and put that hair of to-be-picked-up english. If I err to the wrong side, I'll just end up hitting center which won't hurt the shot, assuming my center alignment isn't so far off.

Fre
 
Colin Colenso said:
btw. I avoid center stun shots like the plague except on near straight in shots and power shots. In the other cases stun creates large amounts of throw making angles harder to predict. I reckon it is the major cause of misses on relatively easy shots for intermediate to high level players.
Click to expand...

I agree. Particularly on shots with a shallow-to-medium cut angle, I avoid center ball unless I'm hitting the shot very firmly. On a large percentage of these shots, I seem to observe a far greater amount of contact throw than I compensated for if I use center stun. It's very hard to predict sometimes.

About the first post, though, Hogan's theory is only valid because it's so easy to make a bad slice when attempting a straight shot in golf. Playing for a draw and working your swing to ensure the in-to-out clubhead release is a reliable way to avoid the slice. It's a more consistent approach than trying for a dead straight swing and suffering the ugly consequences if you come over the top a little or don't get the clubface closed.

But in pool, it's not nearly as difficult to direct the tip to the point on the ball you're aiming for. It doesn't take complicated technique or coordination, it just requires a repeatable stroke. With a little practice, you can hit dead center ball extremely consistently (unlike in golf, where even the top pros struggle with the plane of their swing or the timing of their release from time to time). So I don't really think Hogan's way of thinking quite applies, due the the mechanical differences between golf and pool.

-Andrew
 
Hmmmm

I (guessing) but I don't think that there are any modern day pros that are thinking of intentionally applying draw or fade unless the specific shot calls for it.

I think that pretty much all pros hit a "slight" draw or fade as thier natural swing, but they cosider it a "straight shot"...

In reality I suspect most pros will play a shot that is not really a fade but more of the ball goes out farily straight and then "falls to the left" or "falls to the right" .....That is a bit different than intentionally starting the ball left or right of target and then fading or drawing the ball back on the target line.

Also....Some days (on straight shots) the ball falls to the left, some days it falls to the right...You don't try and change that you just go with what is being produced by your natural swing "that day"


For pool, I don't intentionally hit left, right, high, low unless that is the spin I want on the CB....My first instinct is to try and stay center axis as much as possible
 
Patrick Johnson said:
This is an old idea and, I'm sorry to tell you, still bogus.

Getting 1/16" left spin when you wanted none is no worse than getting 1/16" less right spin than you wanted, especially when both are near centerball. The effect on the shot is the same.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Oh...woe is me. Patrcik thinks something I wrote was bogus. Life is no longer worth living.

But for a man who thought that contacting the OB at the geometrically derived CP would send it into the center of the pocket shouldn't pontificate quite as much as you do....incluiding your recent erroneous posts regarding the magnitude of swerve that you quickly recanted....almost certainly after someone PMd you to tell you of your error.



(-:
 
Colin Colenso said:
I think it just proves the old maxim that almost any method can give some temporary improvements, due mainly to the player looking more intently at the balls and concentrating on the execution.

btw. I avoid center stun shots like the plague except on near straight in shots and power shots. In the other cases stun creates large amounts of throw making angles harder to predict. I reckon it is the major cause of misses on relatively easy shots for intermediate to high level players.

Colin
Click to expand...

That's very interesting. Can you point me to any studies that show that a skidding CB creates a different OB departure angle vs. being hit by a natuarally rolling CB?

Of course, as you know, dead center ball tip contact is only a "stun shot" over a given distance depending on the pace of the shot. So most center ball hits are not stun shots and will not impose any abnormal action on the OB.

Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun said:
That's very interesting. Can you point me to any studies that show that a skidding CB creates a different OB departure angle vs. being hit by a natuarally rolling CB?
Click to expand...
I find it surprising that any experienced player is not aware that you get more throw on a cut shot with a stunned CB compared to a naturally rolling CB. (EDIT...there was once a time where I thought the opposite was true, and it is documented somewhere in this forum, but I was no where near an "experienced" player then...nor do I really consider myself an "experienced" player now. ;))

Anyway, let me link you to one of Dr. Dave's most informative papers...

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-28.pdf

Compare the graphs with PEr = 0% (sliding CB) with the graphs with PEr = 100% (fully rolling CB).
 
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