AZB'ers perception of skill "yardstick": bar table vs. 9-footer

[sfleinen]

Found in another thread:

[...]
I am a fan of both players, and just curious who is playing better these days, and if it would be a very close match of the 2 were to match up (in a race to 100 on the bar table playing 9 ball, for example).

I am also curious if these players play as good on the big table as they do on the bar table.

Folks, not to single-out the author of the above text, but it is Exhibit A of something I've been scratching my head about. I'm curious what "bar table expertise" has anything to do with tourney competition on a big table?

Especially when discussing tournaments held exclusively on the big table, as the below segues to:

Would either of these players have a chance at winning the US Open, or other really big championships that are held on the big tables?
[...]

I'm scratching my head about this one. I mean, I get that the midwest and other areas (in fact, almost the entire center swath of the U.S. except the city of Chicago and portions of Kentucky for bank pool) are "bar table country." And, it appears to be universally acknowledged that when players of a certain caliber or above match against each other on a bar table, it's a coin flip.

Over here in NY, when two high-powered players bump into each other in a bar, cross swords over a bar table, and then realize how evenly matched it is (even if one player defeats another, or they volley sets), the next step is to meet up at a pool hall to "finish the match" on a big table.

My question is, why is the bar table -- especially 9-ball on a bar table which is a coin flip at that level -- still "perceived" as a measuring stick for debates on e.g. who can beat who?

I'm not knocking, I'm just trying to understand. Thoughts?
-Sean

 

[Jaden]

I wouldn't say it's a coin flip...

Found in another thread:


Folks, not to single-out the author of the above text, but it is Exhibit A of something I've been scratching my head about. I'm curious what "bar table expertise" has anything to do with tourney competition on a big table?

Especially when discussing tournaments held exclusively on the big table, as the below segues to:



I'm scratching my head about this one. I mean, I get that the midwest and other areas (in fact, almost the entire center swath of the U.S. except the city of Chicago and portions of Kentucky for bank pool) are "bar table country." And, it appears to be universally acknowledged that when players of a certain caliber or above match against each other on a bar table, it's a coin flip.

Over here in NY, when two high-powered players bump into each other in a bar, cross swords over a bar table, and then realize how evenly matched it is (even if one player defeats another, or they volley sets), the next step is to meet up at a pool hall to "finish the match" on a big table.

My question is, why is the bar table -- especially 9-ball on a bar table which is a coin flip at that level -- still "perceived" as a measuring stick for debates on e.g. who can beat who?

I'm not knocking, I'm just trying to understand. Thoughts?
-Sean

If it's a coin flip for top players, then why did Shane take first in both the USBTC nineball and tenball this year???

Sure, it equalizes things a bit, but not as much as people like to think...

Also, yeah big tables and little tables really have to be looked at separately.

People with good all around skills can switch back and forth, but people who don't focus on having good all around skills often can't transfer back and forth very easily at all.

People who play almost exclusively on big tables, will often find getting shape on a little table a difficult proposition and players who almost exclusively play on little tables, will find long shots difficult and moving the CB around the table difficult on big tables.

Jaden

 

[owll]

i would comment, but unfortunately i have already exceeded my quota for the week on flaming bar table players.

 

[takeitdown]

I run out like water on a barbox. Still beat the people I am supposed to if the race is to 7. So it's still pool. It's easier for everyone but you still need to be a player to compete.

 

[Black-Balled]

I think the little and big boxes are night and day apart.

I played a 2day tourney on bar boxes and missed a ball or 2 the first day, then literally none on day 2.

In a big table event, I am happy to either play a whole set without missing...or make it to day 2:

 

[Banks]

People who play almost exclusively on big tables, will often find getting shape on a little table a difficult proposition and players who almost exclusively play on little tables, will find long shots difficult and moving the CB around the table difficult on big tables.

What he said. I play almost exclusively on barboxes. My game also varies a little between 8b and 9b.

 

[asiasdad]

I thought a bar box was something you caught a veneral disease from late at night
when you were drunk enough to think it was attractive.

 

[MitchAlsup]

I play on 7-footers, 8-footers, and 9-footers each week.

For some reason I don't have the problems mentioned in this thread.
I can run out on the big ones and the small ones.
I can get position on the big ones and small ones.

In addition, I have skills that are excersized differently on the 3 different table sizes.
And in particular, my 8-footer has 760 on it. This does two things: I have the light touch to get position on big tables with fast cloth, and on small tables with any kinds of cloth--yet I am constantly told that my home table would be exactly what I play on in {league, tournaments}...
I have double shimmed pockets so that long shots on the big ones are no harder than on my home table.
In effect, my home table is harder than all the other tables I play other people on.....

 

[seven_7days]

I suggest adding the 10 footers into the equation while we're at it.

 

[Jaden]

You might want to re-read my post...

I play on 7-footers, 8-footers, and 9-footers each week.

For some reason I don't have the problems mentioned in this thread.
I can run out on the big ones and the small ones.
I can get position on the big ones and small ones.

In addition, I have skills that are excersized differently on the 3 different table sizes.
And in particular, my 8-footer has 760 on it. This does two things: I have the light touch to get position on big tables with fast cloth, and on small tables with any kinds of cloth--yet I am constantly told that my home table would be exactly what I play on in {league, tournaments}...
I have double shimmed pockets so that long shots on the big ones are no harder than on my home table.
In effect, my home table is harder than all the other tables I play other people on.....

I added several caveats to my post that may be being overlooked here.

1) I said people that almost exclusively play on one or the other may run into those problems

2) I preceded that caveat with the caveat of people that don't focus on a well rounded game.

It is easier to pocket balls on a barbox, so people tend to use that to their advantage. That creates habits that increase the likelihood of missing shots when you get on a decently tight big table.

It is easier to get shape without obstruction on a big table, which gets people in the habit of not developing proper speed control and shot selection for shape. This can create difficulty when switching to the little tables.

People that are more aware of these difficulties can take advantage of them, especially big table players that transition to the little tables. If you understand it's much easier to make shots on the little tables, then you can make shot selections TOTALLY different to what you would select on a big table.

It's too easy to say that playing on a bar table is much easier...

If it was, Shane wouldn't have had an open invite to play ANYONE barbox eightball for as long as he has, even before his cementing himself as a favorite to almost anyone at most pocket billiard games.

Jaden

 

[buckshotshoey]

I think a lot depends on the game you are playing. 8 ball on a bar box, IMO, is a lot tougher then on a 9 foot. Gets more congested on a 7 foot. Corey Deuel has no problems though!

 

[Black-Balled]

I suggest adding the 10 footers into the equation while we're at it.

I have never scratched, playing 9b on a snooker table...

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

Bar Table vs 9-Footer

I have said for years that if you can't play good on a 9-Footer you can't play. You can't call yourself a player either.

That being said I played like crap in the Western BCA Master Semi Finals last week. So I guess I can't play at all! LOL

 

[zpele]

Imo 8ball on a barbox is way harder. Rotation games are a whole different can of worms though.

8ball on a barbox is closer to a puzzle at high skill levels whereas 9ball or even 10ball is just too easy.

 

[Neil]

I guess all those thinking that 7' tables are a joke have no problem annihilating the ghost on one, huh?

 

[backplaying]

People who can play the big table, can most likely play on a bar box also. People who play mostly on a bar box will have a tough time on a 9 footer. Much easier to go from big to smaller. With that said, I sure don't agree that its just a coin flip with most on a bar box. I will say, just like the big table, the one with the best break will win, if their run out speeds are close. Most bar box specialist like David Matlock could also play on a big table, just not at the same level. Take Reed Pierce, who was always known as a bar box player only, until he won the U.S. open. My point is, most who play at a high level on a bar box, can also play on a big table, maybe not at the same level, but they can play. How many here will bet they can beat the 10 ball ghost on a valley with slow cloth? Do you think it would be easier on a diamond?

 

[Ak Guy]

Now undecided.

I have always been of the opinion any table under 9' should have a sign on it saying "for ages 12 and under". I realize now I need to look at it differently, as much of the US pool world plays on bar box tables. Part of the problem for me is the bar box tables I have played on other then the Diamonds at the Palace in Anchorage, are sorry tables. They are filthy and uneven with dead rails and worn out cloth and pockets that will swallow a hippo from most any angle. Sort of takes the fun out of playing. But, when I watch a good shooter on You Tube on a good Diamond 7 footer I realize it is a different strategy and skill set, and it is still pool. I wish there were good bar box tables in my hick town and a good league to shoot on. Watching a bar box game with the pros, does not compare to a 10 Ball event on the Diamond Big Foot Table.

 

[Bambu]

People who can play the big table, can most likely play on a bar box also. People who play mostly on a bar box will have a tough time on a 9 footer. Much easier to go from big to smaller. With that said, I sure don't agree that its just a coin flip with most on a bar box. I will say, just like the big table, the one with the best break will win, if their run out speeds are close. Most bar box specialist like David Matlock could also play on a big table, just not at the same level. Take Reed Pierce, who was always known as a bar box player only, until he won the U.S. open. My point is, most who play at a high level on a bar box, can also play on a big table, maybe not at the same level, but they can play. How many here will bet they can beat the 10 ball ghost on a valley with slow cloth? Do you think it would be easier on a diamond?

Much easier to run out on a Diamond, yes. A diamond feels like a mini version of real pool, with simonis cloth and centennial balls. Put me on a slow valley though, and its so far removed from what pool was meant to be, I hardly want to play. The giant, lumbering cue ball, the dead rails, slow cloth....just makes me lose interest quickly.

 

[Rico]

bar box u cant miss?

Wow .Everyone just runs out every set on a bar box. amazing .I once ran a bar table tourn. race to 9 .There was some 5and6 runs and 1 9and out ( with 5 on the snap).but most of the 64 payers didnt just run out run out .It was winner break 2 shot pushout.

 

[Icon of Sin]

I guess all those thinking that 7' tables are a joke have no problem annihilating the ghost on one, huh?

I wouldnt go so far as to say annihilating, but I can regularly beat the 9ball ghost on a Valley Box... that's not really saying anything though.

Just to add to the conversation... I think the line between skill is way more defined when it comes to playing on the big table. After the Open, Woodward and Orcollo matched up on a diamond box at Q-Masters, playing 8ball races to 9. No spot was given and each won a set when I left.