FYI, some videos, an article from Bob, and much more info dealing with this topic can be found here:
Enjoy!
Back swing - pause/no pause is focusing on the wrong area of the stroke!
- Thread starter Tin Man
- Start date
FYI, some videos, an article from Bob, and much more info dealing with this topic can be found here:
Enjoy!
If acceleration is constant then speed increases in a linear manner.
v=a*t
Distance per time increases in a polynomial manner if acceleration is constant, which is not exponential.
d=a*t^2
That's what it all about. Whatever it takes to get you there.
If I take off the training wheels, I revert to a herky jerky stroke. Its almost like watching a train wreck! So many years of doing it wrong. I have to occasionally force myself to do it right.
Last edited:
I am guilty of reading one page and skipping over three! However, I could have stopped after reading the first post. Tin Man is spot on about a gentle start and smooth acceleration. I'm not going to get tangled up in the differences between the abstract math terms and the real world way most people use terms. Unless I am in a design engineering meeting I still use the various forms of decelerate knowing everyone including the math heads know exactly what I mean. When the grip arm looses impulse and the cue starts decelerating it loses the guidance a contracting muscle gives. There is also the issue that nobody has the muscles exactly evenly developed on the inside and the outside of the arm. This makes it a given that we steer the stroke a little more with one side of the arm. We learn where to hit the cue ball based on "normal" steering, then reverse it when we let the arm relax before contacting the cue ball. In theory it shouldn't matter if we are accelerating or decelerating when hitting the cue ball. It wouldn't matter in the least with a robot, but we aren't robots and have a far more complicated suspension and guidance system!
We need to feel like we are increasing speed through the cue ball. I tried many things years ago including accelerating to a steady speed and maintaining that speed. Pretty much impossible in application. I tried to make the biggest portion of my backswing and the same portion of my forward swing mirror images, accelerating quickly in the early part of my backswing to slow gently and start forward gently also. What a mess that was! In my early quest before instruction was available it was all trial and error and I made pretty much every mistake known to man! I settled on a gentle backswing, smooth transition, and gentle start to my forward stroke. I can't disagree with people who find that a pause at the end of the backstroke works for them but I have always wondered why they don't pause at the back of at least the last few practice strokes? Seems like the practice strokes are largely wasted. A smooth transition on practice strokes to be capped by a pause on the final stroke doesn't seem logical to me.
A gentle backswing makes a pause or gentle transition and gentle start to the forward stroke much easier. The only part that really matters is that gentle start forward and then the acceleration to the speed needed to hit the cue ball. None of the things before or after are really needed except for the fact that it is almost impossible to have that inch more or less of stroke in contact with the cue ball be performed properly without the preliminary actions and follow through. A robot could be made that shot perfectly with a stroke that was less than two inches long. We aren't robots!
Hu
We need to feel like we are increasing speed through the cue ball. I tried many things years ago including accelerating to a steady speed and maintaining that speed. Pretty much impossible in application. I tried to make the biggest portion of my backswing and the same portion of my forward swing mirror images, accelerating quickly in the early part of my backswing to slow gently and start forward gently also. What a mess that was! In my early quest before instruction was available it was all trial and error and I made pretty much every mistake known to man! I settled on a gentle backswing, smooth transition, and gentle start to my forward stroke. I can't disagree with people who find that a pause at the end of the backstroke works for them but I have always wondered why they don't pause at the back of at least the last few practice strokes? Seems like the practice strokes are largely wasted. A smooth transition on practice strokes to be capped by a pause on the final stroke doesn't seem logical to me.
A gentle backswing makes a pause or gentle transition and gentle start to the forward stroke much easier. The only part that really matters is that gentle start forward and then the acceleration to the speed needed to hit the cue ball. None of the things before or after are really needed except for the fact that it is almost impossible to have that inch more or less of stroke in contact with the cue ball be performed properly without the preliminary actions and follow through. A robot could be made that shot perfectly with a stroke that was less than two inches long. We aren't robots!
Hu
Tin Man,
You are right about the forward stroke...in my view.
One thing that might be causing some of the angst in this thread with "Pausers" and "slow-back-strokers", is that both of those techniques, or one of those techniques, may have really helped some people here in sparking significant improvement, and now they attach and outsized significance to those techniques. Just a thought.
You have probably seen Mark Wilson's 3-part youtube seminar, but at least Mark Wilson (who may not be perfect, but is pretty smart with this stuff), says that a pause is not required, but a slow back swing is. If I could be an advocate for the slow backswing's place in this discussion, I would say that our goal of a SMOOTH acceleration from 0 - final stroke speed, becomes exponentially harder to achieve where at the back of our stroke we are slowing down a fast backstroke and starting a forward stroke. Accordingly, I view a slow back swing as rightfully part of any discussion in how to achieve a smooth forward swing.
If there is any "secret sauce" to becoming a great pool player, in my humble opinion, an essential and heavy ingredient is a smooth and gradual forward swing...as you have outlined in this thread. For whatever reason, many players find his difficult to achieve (me included). I think the pause and the slow backswing are techniques that many people find helpful to create conditions that are friendly to a smooth forward stroke. Personally, I am a slow backswing no-pause guy.
I always appreciate your insights on here.
kollegedave
Yes,that's exactly what I'm saying.
Most people start too fast and decelerate through the cue ball (which means they move their cue twice as hard as they should with a sudden lurch with terrible impacts to their accuracy). The correct feel is to start the cue slowly and softly, and let it pick up speed all the way through the cue ball.
My saying is "Every shot is born a soft shot". People are in such a hurry to get their cue up to speed that they use way too many muscles and way too much force. My recommendation is to picture the shot softer than you want to actually hit it, then make sure you keep going through the cue ball by trying to hit a 'ghost' cue ball 3" past where they cue ball actually sits. Picturing the shot soft helps calm the initial cue speed, and picturing the ghost cue ball ensures a good acceleration all the way through the actual cue ball.
Again, without a table this is torturous to trouble shoot. It is hard enough side by side with someone. But it's the best I'm going to do. My main point of this thread is what I'm going to state to Kollege Dave in my next post.
Thank you FeelDaShot!
I like this community. Most people are very appreciative and pleasant, and there are a ton of super knowledgeable players that have a lot to offer. There will always be a few bumps along the way but as I discovered in this thread it is more often a misunderstanding than genuine bad intent. I'll keep posting and if some of what I say helps a few people than that's great.
Thanks Kollegedave!
I agree that all three parts of the stroke are important. 1) The relaxed backswing (whether it is in slow-motion or just unhurried), 2) the relaxed transition (whether there is a pronounced pause or just letting the cue come to a stop naturally before starting a forward swing), and 3( a smooth and slow start to the forward swing that accelerates through the cue ball. I'm not taking away the importance of 1 and 2.
What I am saying is that the vast, vast majority of pool players I've trained (keep in mind these are players between 500-700 Fargorate that have seen all the videos, trained with Mark Wilson or Jerry Brieseth or the beloved late Scott Lee, and who have all worked on their stroke for many, many hours) don't get it right. They have a picture perfect back swing and transition, then they jam their cue forward. So the point of this thread is to call attention to this. Doing 1 and 2 does not make a great stroke if you don't do 3 as well. 1 and 2 can help, but you don't get to start with a pretty choreographed routine that ends with a lurch.
When I try to focus these people on the forward swing and try to get them to slow down the start of their stroke they constantly default to the wrong part. They slow down their pause at the cue ball, their back swing, their pause at the end of the back swing, then they still jam forward. It's like they think if they slow down everything else that fixes the problem. But there is this one specific area where almost everyone continues to miss, and it's frustrating because it is the only part that really matters. All of those other parts are to prepare for step 3.
So if 1 and 2 help with step 3, great! But if fixation on 1 and 2 distracts from step 3, so they fly their 'Mission Accomplished' banner over the ship and celebrate their technique while they lunch at the cue ball, well, that's a problem.
I've trained with over 30 students this year in extended sessions and I think ALL of them had to slow down their forward swing. I thought that was worthy of a post. People can do what they want to do, and if they want to continue to focus on other aspects of their stroke I'm not going to fight them. I just find it sad that the majority of pool players spend their lives playing this game and never learn what a calm soft cue with good timing can accomplish. It improves your aim, your tip accuracy, and your swing speed control, and unlocks a higher level of pool. I'm not even a fundamentals guy, this is almost the only thing I really feel matters and it's a little tragic to me most people never get to feel it.
Which automatically generates an excellent follow through.... without even trying.
I like that you have tried to find an analogy that generates the proper technique because it is reasonable given the context.
One that worked for me was the action reminds me of feeding a cable or thick wire through a hole in a wall.
Lining up to thread it into a hole requires precision with the initial insertion, a slow exact deliberate motion to start.
The forward thrust that follows is still controlled and measured.
It hit me this evening which top player perfectly exemplifies this focus on a slow forward stroke (while not doing the slow backstroke with a pause technique) like Tin Man is talking about here. I was out to eat with my wife and she caught me having one of those blank stare moments. It was then that it hit me. Don't fear men, I've learned to quickly refocus when I'm with my lady but I filed it away for you all. 
For all of his cue pumping action...all the fancy back and forth warmup strokes....the loosey-goosey cueing action...this guy has that momentary slow forward stroke that's been the focus of this thread. Once it hit me, I knew I had seen it before so I didn't really need to verify it but I did anyway. Yep its there and you don't really need slow motion. Just pull up any video of Francisco Bustamante and take a look -- you'll see it.
For all of his cue pumping action...all the fancy back and forth warmup strokes....the loosey-goosey cueing action...this guy has that momentary slow forward stroke that's been the focus of this thread. Once it hit me, I knew I had seen it before so I didn't really need to verify it but I did anyway. Yep its there and you don't really need slow motion. Just pull up any video of Francisco Bustamante and take a look -- you'll see it.
Yes. Busty is a perfect example. I just watched a few of his shots from the derby big foot vs Filler and it was hypnotic.It hit me this evening which top player perfectly exemplifies this focus on a slow forward stroke (while not doing the slow backstroke with a pause technique) like Tin Man is talking about here. I was out to eat with my wife and she caught me having one of those blank stare moments. It was then that it hit me. Don't fear men, I've learned to quickly refocus when I'm with my lady but I filed it away for you all.
For all of his cue pumping action...all the fancy back and forth warmup strokes....the loosey-goosey cueing action...this guy has that momentary slow forward stroke that's been the focus of this thread. Once it hit me, I knew I had seen it before so I didn't really need to verify it but I did anyway. Yep its there and you don't really need slow motion. Just pull up any video of Francisco Bustamante and take a look -- you'll see it.
Siming Chen, Chris Melling, Buddy Hall, SVB. Those are some of my favorites to watch. Busty just made the list!
Another analogy that occurs: Imagine your cue was made entirely of lead, and weighed 30 lbs. instead of 19 oz.
Could repeated practice stroking with such a tool (the added weight might slow your backswing, and possibly also induce a barely perceptible forced pause & slowed acceleration of the forward stroke) likely imprint the desired muscle memory?
Today I was at the pool hall and an old touring pro who is a regular (Mark Maryo) from the 80-90s was playing and I realized where I had seen before what Tin Man was talking about here. When you watch his stroke the final delivery looks similar to bustamantes in videos. It is totally smooth with no sign of forced acceleration. It looks totally natural. Even on shots where he is hitting the ball sort of hard it looks like he puts no effort into the stroke to generate the speed.
Granted he has a monster stroke and it doesn't always look like this when he really dials up the power, but for softer to medium speed shots it becomes very obvious that his delivery is superior to anyone else in the pool hall, including the younger A players.
Granted he has a monster stroke and it doesn't always look like this when he really dials up the power, but for softer to medium speed shots it becomes very obvious that his delivery is superior to anyone else in the pool hall, including the younger A players.