balls frozen...what to do?

dukeboy1977

dukeboy1977

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I had a bad match tonight so I'm asking you cause maybe the rules have changed or something. If you have the cueball and the object ball frozen together in 9-ball, isn't it still a foul to hit the balls straight on? It always has been as long as I've been playing but I'm told that in BCA rules, it is no longer a foul cause of too many arguments about being at a 45 degree angle, etc...The counter-guy even told me that the pro's are now playing like this, and even though I believe I'm right, I paid the guy but I quit playing and left. My argument was that if it's no longer a foul cause of the 45 degree issue, it's STILL a "push" or "double hit" if the cueball travels on the same path as the object ball more than a couple inches. So, what's the real issue guys? Maybe another opinion would be beneficial for me.
 
Well, I can't help you with the US rules but just for some trivia information for you, here in Japan if balls are frozen you can hit straight into them *BUT* you have to call "push" first. The push rule can be used as long as the balls are within a chalk width of each other. You can slam right into them and it's not a foul. You have to say "PUSH" first though. If you don't say it it's a foul.

"But isn't a push a push out after the break?" you say. Well, for us round eyes it is. Here in Japan though a push is when you have the above scenario. A push out after the break is called "shoot out" and it's not allowed in amateur competition.
MULLY
doesn't help your cause one bit but you get some trivia
 
as long as the two balls are frozen you can hit the cue ball any way you want,as hard or as soft as you want.
 
if your balls are frozen...... just thaw them out :grin-square:

da-ding, I'll be here all week folks
 
Under World Standardized Rules:

2.20 JUDGING DOUBLE HITS
When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, (See Diagram 18) special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul.


Note that the operative phrase is that a referee must be watching the shot or it may not be a foul.
 
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The way it was explained to me right after the rule changed..seems like is has been a couple of years now...as long as you can stroke through the cue ball, it is considered a legal shot.

Lisa
 
bankinbob said:
as long as the two balls are frozen you can hit the cue ball any way you want,as hard or as soft as you want.
Click to expand...

Says who?

Classic push shot scenario...

That's why it's always a good thing to clarify this sort of thing before matching up...

Flex
 
My suggestion is this: before you play someone for anything significant, be sure you and your opponent are clear as to what is ok and what isn't...

All those conflicting rules won't resolve your particular problem.

Agree to what the rules are before starting.

Flex
 
BCA says "take a normal stroke".
VNEA says "45 degree angle".
Simon says "know the rules first".......SPF=randyg
 
androd said:
as long as they're frozen, you only hit the cue ball once, not a double hit.
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Of course it's not a double hit, it's a push! The cue ball doesn't have enough space/time to be propelled forward allowing the cue stick to "follow thru". When this space/time is not available a push shot becomes more likely.

It is possible to have a normal stroke and not foul in any way when there's only a 1/4" between cue ball and object ball!

This is exactly why I clarify push shots, double hit shots, ball in hand, kiss/carroms, etc before the coin flip or lag any time I'm playing for money!

Zim
 
Zims Rack said:
Of course it's not a double hit, it's a push! The cue ball doesn't have enough space/time to be propelled forward allowing the cue stick to "follow thru". When this space/time is not available a push shot becomes more likely.
Click to expand...

Huh?!?! I would say you're trying to throw "the book" at us;) , but I'm not sure if any rule books distinguish between double hits and pushes? It sounds like you agree that frozen OB and CB, there is no double hit...Your point of contention seems to be that the tip stays on the cue ball longer than it's legally supposed to.

This reminds me of a funny story of a match a friend of mine played in the BCA league tournament in Vegas. Anyone who has ever played over there knows that 80% of the people you play are trying to throw the book at you at any given moment. Well, my friend is a helluva player, with a long, fluid stroke and follow through. Anyway, long story short, his opponent tried to call a foul on him for leaving his cue tip on the cue ball too long through the follow through!:confused: And this wasn't even a scenario in which a foul could take place, meaning the cue ball and object ball were more than a foot apart. I mean WTF?!?!

Anyway, when CB and OB are frozen, the physics of the scenario means that anyone who can hold & stroke a cue is not going to foul by double hit. I've never been a rules guru, but the distinction you've given the push in this scenario sounds home grown. Thoughts?
 
dukeboy1977 said:
I had a bad match tonight so I'm asking you cause maybe the rules have changed or something. If you have the cueball and the object ball frozen together in 9-ball, isn't it still a foul to hit the balls straight on? It always has been as long as I've been playing but I'm told that in BCA rules, it is no longer a foul cause of too many arguments about being at a 45 degree angle, etc...The counter-guy even told me that the pro's are now playing like this, and even though I believe I'm right, I paid the guy but I quit playing and left. My argument was that if it's no longer a foul cause of the 45 degree issue, it's STILL a "push" or "double hit" if the cueball travels on the same path as the object ball more than a couple inches. So, what's the real issue guys? Maybe another opinion would be beneficial for me.
Click to expand...

Under BCA/WPA rules (see below) it's not a foul. You can stroke the shot in any normal way. Some other rules differ, but the BCA/WPA rule reflects the physical reality of the shot.

The reason it's not a foul is because it's physically not a double hit or a push, even though the cue ball immediately follows the object ball at almost the same speed. High speed videos have confirmed that, if stroked normally and the CB/OB aren't blocked from moving freely, there's no double hit and no "prolonged contact".

But be careful: like a ball frozen to the rail, the CB must be declared frozen to the OB by your opponent or by a referee.

pj
chgo

World Pool-Billiard Association
World Standardized Rules

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_fouls#6.7

6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
If the cue stick contacts the cue ball more than once on a shot, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is close to but not touching an object ball and the cue tip is still on the cue ball when the cue ball contacts that object ball, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is very close to an object ball, and the shooter barely grazes that object ball on the shot, the shot is assumed not to violate the first paragraph of this rule, even though the tip is arguably still on the cue ball when ball-ball contact is made. However, if the cue ball is touching an object ball at the start of the shot, it is legal to shoot towards or partly into that ball (provided it is a legal target within the rules of the game) and if the object ball is moved by such a shot, it is considered to have been contacted by the cue ball. (Even though it may be legal to shoot towards such a touching or ?frozen? ball, care must be taken not to violate the rules in the first paragraph if there are additional balls close by.) The cue ball is assumed not to be touching any ball unless it is declared touching by the referee or opponent. It is the shooter?s responsibility to get the declaration before the shot. Playing away from a frozen ball does not constitute having hit that ball unless specified in the rules of the game.

6.8 Push Shot
It is a foul to prolong tip-to-cue-ball contact beyond that seen in normal shots.
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where you are playing

you should always discuss rules before any match if you are not sure. i was still playing for $$$$$ in bars when the bca decided 8 ball on the break was not a winner. try to explain that to a big drunk cowboy and his 1/2 dozen buddies for a $20.00 dollar bill.
 
senor said:
Huh?!?! I would say you're trying to throw "the book" at us;) , but I'm not sure if any rule books distinguish between double hits and pushes? It sounds like you agree that frozen OB and CB, there is no double hit...Your point of contention seems to be that the tip stays on the cue ball longer than it's legally supposed to.

This reminds me of a funny story of a match a friend of mine played in the BCA league tournament in Vegas. Anyone who has ever played over there knows that 80% of the people you play are trying to throw the book at you at any given moment. Well, my friend is a helluva player, with a long, fluid stroke and follow through. Anyway, long story short, his opponent tried to call a foul on him for leaving his cue tip on the cue ball too long through the follow through!:confused: And this wasn't even a scenario in which a foul could take place, meaning the cue ball and object ball were more than a foot apart. I mean WTF?!?!

Anyway, when CB and OB are frozen, the physics of the scenario means that anyone who can hold & stroke a cue is not going to foul by double hit. I've never been a rules guru, but the distinction you've given the push in this scenario sounds home grown. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
when someone calls a foul on me ,i just put one up or forfeit the shot or whatever. anyone who wants to argue about push shots or some such has got a bad game.
 
PoolSharkAllen said:
Under World Standardized Rules:

2.20 JUDGING DOUBLE HITS
When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, (See Diagram 18) special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul.


Note that the operative phrase is that a referee must be watching the shot or it may not be a foul.
Click to expand...
No, that guideline -- it was never a rule -- is no longer in the WSR.
 
dukeboy1977 said:
... I'm told that in BCA rules, it is no longer a foul ...
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I think it has been legal under the BCA rules to shoot straight at a frozen object ball in pool for over 50 years, which is to say from the time the BCA was created.
 
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