Ban Magic Rack for Pro Events?

[CJ Wiley]

Why do you think it's called the "magic rack"?

I agree! I don't understand why would you want to use a regular rack when the magic rack makes all the balls touch. Isn't that we are wanting in the first place? Isn't that what all these players argue about when they are racking? Just use the magic rack.

I don't agree with this whole first shot is a roll out no matter what. Just play the game. If you don't like it then play 10 ball or 15 ball rotation.

What the magic rack does is shows how easily you can make balls on a 9 ball rack. It's not a question about the rack but the game.

The real issue with the magic rack is you can touch the balls with your fingers....Why do you think it's called the "magic rack"?

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Dennis at the Swanee killed Pattern Racking.

He was amazing, the 6 and 9 were in the same location after he hit the One.
I can't wait to see the re-run of the final.
To see if every ball is going to the same location.

I break like a girl.
So after a few of Dennis's breaks, I went to my table.
Wow the Eight went in corner pocket, 2 and 3 up table.
Now I know which shots to work on for the run.
I'm going to be Pattern Racking like Dennis.
Maybe I'll be able to run out, LOL. :frown:

Is this in Joe Tuckers Secrets to Racking.
Hymm, may have to buy Joe's book and both DVD's.
I always thought Pool was a Game not a War.

While you're at it watching the replay, check how often the 4 and 5 also ended up in the same place.

 

[Paul Schofield]

9 Ball is still the best game.

For who? For what? IMO It might be pool's worst game (excluding Ten-Ball). I don't care what you do to the front end of the game, it is just too hard and confusing to have the mass appeal you are wanting.

 

[The Renfro]

I would definitely vote for 9 on the spot and 3 balls past the head string...

Of course the Accu-Rack System :thumbup: will need to be used to keep from having too many fouls for not getting the 3 balls up table unless MBR has changed something since they tried to use it at the Mosconi Cup in 2011..... Seemed that the balls were on set tracks so there were collisions keeping balls from getting up table even when they varied the speed of their break.......

 

[hang-the-9]

I would definitely vote for 9 on the spot and 3 balls past the head string...

Of course the Accu-Rack System :thumbup: will need to be used to keep from having too many fouls for not getting the 3 balls up table unless MBR has changed something since they tried to use it at the Mosconi Cup in 2011..... Seemed that the balls were on set tracks so there were collisions keeping balls from getting up table even when they varied the speed of their break.......

That balls past the headstring rule is bad, all it takes is a few kisses up table to prevent a ball or few that were going to reach, to not reach.

Maybe make it past the side pockets. I've seen players make a ball or even two, then a ball hits another ball at the line and it's a "bad break".

 

[The Renfro]

That balls past the headstring rule is bad, all it takes is a few kisses up table to prevent a ball or few that were going to reach, to not reach.

Maybe make it past the side pockets. I've seen players make a ball or even two, then a ball hits another ball at the line and it's a "bad break".

I tested the Accu-Rack system 9ball templates pretty heavily before even thinking about talking to Sky about their use in the Mosconi... The only times I had any real issues with balls not passing the headstring were when I broke em bad.... reallllly bad....

I'll stick a bunch of breaks on video with the 9 on the spot using the templates and post it up to let everyone see the pathings... It's actually harder to get a great break doing that than it is breaking 10ball... CJ says 6 wired balls on 10ball... I always thought 3 had a better than good chance so maybe he is talking about 3 from either side you break from.....

Chris

 

[evanlockhart]

That balls past the headstring rule is bad, all it takes is a few kisses up table to prevent a ball or few that were going to reach, to not reach.

Maybe make it past the side pockets. I've seen players make a ball or even two, then a ball hits another ball at the line and it's a "bad break".

I remember when they first started implementing that rule. There were some really powerful breaks by guys like JA who had this same problem. Right there I thought the rule was ridiculous. The idea is great, but it also creates some serious issues.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Why did they not like the Sargo rack. I thought it was a good rack, always tight.---Smitty

It's expensive, cumbersome, has to be used right, you must train the table for it, you can never use anything else without ruining its effectiveness, it doesn't work well on bad cloth...

These are the main reasons. The magic rack solves all of these issues quite well. People are stupid. Why even talk about the rack (device). The goal is a perfect rack, and the magic rack delivers that. The only realistic question is should pros play 9 ball, or should you rack the 9 on the spot. (I didn't mean your question about the Sardo was stupid...its a valid question)

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

All magic rack does is freeze the balls. You can get the exact same results with a wood triangle if you labor over it until every single ball touches. But nobody wants to do that.

People are playing up this myth that the mbr creates special breaks that don't normally happen with triangles. It's simply not true. You're just not used to seeing those "too easy" breaks because you've been settling for slightly loose racks for decades.


Posted from Azbilliards.com App for Android

Well said! With my Delta 13, fresh clean balls, and newish cloth, I can produce magic rack-like rack with magic rack like results. Hell, on slightly worn Simonis, with not so pristine balls, and a hard plastic rack I can come damn close. Very easy to wire the corner ball. And this isn't a trick...it is just a good tight rack. Racking is a skill like anything else in pool. I spent tons of time practicing my break, thus I also spent time practicing racking. Most people simply don't have the patience, attention, or desire to do things right.

KMRUNOUT

 

[evanlockhart]

...it is just a good tight rack. Racking is a skill like anything else in pool. I spent tons of time practicing my break, thus I also spent time practicing racking. Most people simply don't have the patience, attention, or desire to do things right.

KMRUNOUT

+1. There are a lot of tricks to getting a tight rack even with garbage balls, a dirty table and a terrible rack. Tapping, table friction, creating friction between the balls by spinning them in alternate directions, trying slightly off the headspot, solid pressure etc. etc...

I'm always surprised at how terrible a lot of people are at racking.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Many good points made here. I guess it somewhat depends on what defines a pro tournament. The Swanee this past weekend is anything but that. Certainly pros play in it but there are 192 players and I'd bet maybe 20 have a shot at most. One thing the BR does for a tournament like this is get 192 players through the event in 2 days. It really does speed up play and that is a blessing for an event like this.

Now, for a smaller field event with a higher entry fee that is pretty much a full field of pros and shortstops, if they are going to use the Magic Rack fine, but something has to be done about the pattern racking and soft break - Break box, balls past the head string, neutral racker, whatever. Controlling whitey is one thing but watching these guys controlling almost the entire rack off the break is not working for me. Last night was basically like watching Orcollo play the ghost and a player of his caliber is expected to beat Casper (i.e. break and run most of the time).

Break from the box and opponent racks is fine. This eliminates pattern racking (well, actually the opponent will likely rack the pattern they think is *worst* for the breaker.) The slight cut break from the corner of the box still has the corner ball wired...but at least now there is some skill involved in controlling the cue ball. If 3 balls must pass the center of the table, that eliminates the *very* soft breaks, but you can still break pretty darn soft with great results. They do this at the weekly tourney at Snookers in RI. Mike Dechaine still runs the occasional set, but hey its a race to 5 and he *should* be able to do that. No one else does, and the tourney gets like 50 players a week. Mike wins usually because he is by far the best player, not because of the rack. Oh, and it is rack your own. I break pretty damn well with the magic rack, I rack my favorite pattern, usually make a ball and get shape...and have never won the tourney. Go figure.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

You shouldn't lose to the rack

A lot of people "think" that. If just depends on if you want to see the intricacies of the game or not. The better the break, the worse the quality of pool as a rule.

Just listen to the feedback from this last tournament, there's no "head to head" competition if someone just breaks and runs out. I know this is what players want to do (break and run out), however, at the highest levels it's not that interesting to not have to "earn" the run out.

The races could be shorter and still more interesting. A lot of these games in a race to 11 are wasted by easy run outs with ball in hand or after making 3 or 4 balls on the break. In 10 Ball there are 6 "wired" balls{with a magic rack}off the break if you hit hit the break at 24mph. Is this really pool, or a trick shot?

To be fair, the balls don't run themselves. Also, I think it is not entirely accurate to say that there are 6 wired balls. That would imply that we would see people making 6 on the break on a regular basis. Even the most obvious 2 behind the head ball are not *wired*. The rack must be hit square at a good speed. Not everyone can even hit 24mph, never mind hit it well. The cueball must be controlled too. From what I can see, even the pros have some trouble doing this consistently, if at all. Because a few have mastered the technique, it casts the *illusion* that it is easy or some kind of trick shot.

However, I do agree with your premise that the better the break, the worse the pool. Meaning less skill is required after the break to run out. However, I think this relationship is an exponential one. What I mean is, if someone is breaking *perfect*, then yes it makes a major impact on the ease of the runouts. However, I don't think the difference between pretty good and so-so, or so-so and poor, are anywhere near the difference between pretty good and *perfect*. So again, the "problem" only exists for those handful of pros who have invested the time and energy to perfect the break. I think if all the other pros worked on their break, we wouldn't see these giant blowouts. I mean...Shaw had shots and failed to get out. He broke and failed to do it as well as Dennis. On the other hand Rodney was CRUSHING the rack, and had great success with it. But he didn't shoot as well as Dennis, and didn't control the cueball on the break as well. I think the best player won the tourney. I think the magic rack ensured that this would happen by removing the luck factor from getting a slug rack. You shouldn't be beaten by the rack.

KMRUNOUT

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

IMHO, it is easier to get away with pattern racking with the Magic Rack than with a triangle.

 

[satman]

First off:

IMHO, it is easier to get away with pattern racking with the Magic Rack than with a triangle.

Letting someone use a regular rack, and adjusting the balls, is outdated. You need something they can't adjust gaps with, or someone neutral to rack the balls. Wanna stop pattern racking with the magic rack, then set a mandatory pattern for balls 1 thru 5, where no one likes them. Lets quit worrying about people stringing racks, who are capable of running out. Make people learn to break, and learn to play. Pool ain't elementary school, where you have to share the toys. Let the horses run racks, as long as the rack is done fair.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the math is the teacher

To be fair, the balls don't run themselves. Also, I think it is not entirely accurate to say that there are 6 wired balls. That would imply that we would see people making 6 on the break on a regular basis. Even the most obvious 2 behind the head ball are not *wired*. The rack must be hit square at a good speed. Not everyone can even hit 24mph, never mind hit it well. The cueball must be controlled too. From what I can see, even the pros have some trouble doing this consistently, if at all. Because a few have mastered the technique, it casts the *illusion* that it is easy or some kind of trick shot.

However, I do agree with your premise that the better the break, the worse the pool. Meaning less skill is required after the break to run out. However, I think this relationship is an exponential one. What I mean is, if someone is breaking *perfect*, then yes it makes a major impact on the ease of the runouts. However, I don't think the difference between pretty good and so-so, or so-so and poor, are anywhere near the difference between pretty good and *perfect*. So again, the "problem" only exists for those handful of pros who have invested the time and energy to perfect the break. I think if all the other pros worked on their break, we wouldn't see these giant blowouts. I mean...Shaw had shots and failed to get out. He broke and failed to do it as well as Dennis. On the other hand Rodney was CRUSHING the rack, and had great success with it. But he didn't shoot as well as Dennis, and didn't control the cueball on the break as well. I think the best player won the tourney. I think the magic rack ensured that this would happen by removing the luck factor from getting a slug rack. You shouldn't be beaten by the rack.

KMRUNOUT

"Wired" may be too strong of a term, how about "just sleeping", there are "kisses" and the spin can't be completely controlled.

I have a feeling Joe Tucker would back me up on this. At between 23 and 25 mph the two balls behind the one can go in the side, the two behind them can go "cross side" and the end balls can go four rails in the corner. The other two balls in the last row go straight back, one for the corner, and the other one diamond in on the end rail. I say "can," but if the rack is perfect (with the "magic rack") it's more like "will".

The one ball also goes straight for the corner and sometimes goes in. Watch any of the best breakers and I'll bet on these balls in those pockets all day. With a Regular Wooden Rack these percentages are probably cut in half (an educated guess).

I know there's still an "art" to making this break and hitting the balls square, however, I'm a believer in "begin with the end in mind".

The end is everyone makes 3 balls every time, and the game is way easier than 9 Ball. In 9 Ball there's only 3 Balls you can play with any frequency, in 10 Ball there's 6....I guess "the math is the teacher".

 

[leto1776]

I think it goes a long way towards explaining the current state of men's professional pool when "professional" layers can't be trusted to give a good rack.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Yeah, fortunately our country is run by honesty

I think it goes a long way towards explaining the current state of men's professional pool when "professional" layers can't be trusted to give a good rack.

Yeah, fortunately our country is run by honesty - our policies and procedures by "honest" politicians, our economic system by "honest" bankers, our legal system by "honest" lawyers, our medical system by "honest pharmaceutical companies" and Wall Street by "honest" investors and traders.:thumbup:

They all probably think pool players should get the electric chair if they can rack the balls and give themselves an advantage, or their opponents a disadvantage. 'The World System is the Teacher'

 

[hang-the-9]

"Wired" may be too strong of a term, how about "just sleeping", there are "kisses" and the spin can't be completely controlled.

I have a feeling Joe Tucker would back me up on this. At between 23 and 25 mph the two balls behind the one can go in the side, the two behind them can go "cross side" and the end balls can go four rails in the corner. The other two balls in the last row go straight back, one for the corner, and the other one diamond in on the end rail. I say "can," but if the rack is perfect (with the "magic rack") it's more like "will".

The one ball also goes straight for the corner and sometimes goes in. Watch any of the best breakers and I'll bet on these balls in those pockets all day. With a Regular Wooden Rack these percentages are probably cut in half (an educated guess).

I know there's still an "art" to making this break and hitting the balls square, however, I'm a believer in "begin with the end in mind".

The end is everyone makes 3 balls every time, and the game is way easier than 9 Ball. In 9 Ball there's only 3 Balls you can play with any frequency, in 10 Ball there's 6....I guess "the math is the teacher".

This explains why I very rarely make the right balls in 10 ball, my break tops out at about 22 mph hehe. Need to get that last couple of MPHs in. Although it does not look like SVB is breaking even at that speed, but he probably just makes it look so easy.

 

[leto1776]

Yeah, fortunately our country is run by honesty - our policies and procedures by "honest" politicians, our economic system by "honest" bankers, our legal system by "honest" lawyers, our medical system by "honest pharmaceutical companies" and Wall Street by "honest" investors and traders.:thumbup:

They all probably think pool players should get the electric chair if they can rack the balls and give themselves an advantage, or their opponents a disadvantage. 'The World System is the Teacher'

Excuse me for expecting pros to carry themselves with a little dignity and to conduct themselves professionally.

 

[satman]

Just so you know

Excuse me for expecting pros to carry themselves with a little dignity and to conduct themselves professionally.

I'm not sure how old you are, or how long you have been around the Pro pool players. And I don't mean to generalize, because there are some really good people out there. But, Pro pool players have always been notorious for looking for an edge to get the money. Maybe part of that is caused by living on the road, and playing tournies that barely pay enough to eat and get to the next stop. But, it there is an edge, whether it's pattern racking, soft breaking, or slug racking when you rack for the other guy, a lot of people have no problem with it. They say, "everyone else is doing it, and if you ain't, you're a sap and don't wanna win". Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people with integrity, who have tried to set a good example and do good things for pool. But, in the long run, there will have to be something done to legitimize the break and especially the racking.