Ban Magic Rack for Pro Events?

[CJ Wiley]

We all know that's the correct thing to do.

In my mind the issue is not who racks the balls. The issue is we have to even talk about it because its accepted that players will gaffe racks because thats just how it is so lets find a way to protect them from themselves.

We get the game we deserve.

(Maybe that can be my new catch phrase.)

Referees should, without question, be used. If they're not that's an issue within it's self. We all know that's the correct thing to do....or do I need to spell it out for everyone?

 

[jka]

Referees should, without question, be used. If they're not that's an issue within it's self. We all know that's the correct thing to do....or do I need to spell it out for everyone?

Don't worry, Paul Schofield (whoever he is), will be back shortly to argue with you.

 

[leto1776]

Don't you get it? You (as a pro) have got to have a common thread with the common every day player. Do you want a paying audience. Get in touch.

An attractive woman with white gloves is not an alternative for a Magic Rack. The pretty girl with white gloves is a nice prop but should never be an answer to a serious problem.

The WPBA Masters had refs racking (at least for the televised matches),and that was on ESPN. The common thread is the game itself,in that you can walk into almost any bar and play a game of pool,not that the pros rack their own balls.

 

[Rhale100]

A look into that reality.......

"Earl...I know its hill-hill but Shane is going to take his mulligan now because he didnt like the way that rack broke."

At which point Earl calmly impales the referee on his 70 inch lance of justice and walks out.

Interesting perception of reality you have there.....................

 

[Bigtruck]

That would be fine, it's a legitamate cost of doing business and it's important in my opinion because it effect the atmosphere and outcome of the tournament.

The Dallas Open had Refs at every table and they racked the balls every game. There were no complaints that I'm aware of and I played in the tournament myself. If a Ref. racks the balls there's no reason the player should even look at the rack.....and maybe they shouldn't.

We had Referees at the Mosconi Cup a couple of months ago as well...same thing, no complains and we were the "visitors" in the tournament.

Can anyone imagine snooker players racking and spotting their own balls? Not hardly! How about Willie Mosconi, can you imagine the look on his face if you told him to rack his own balls? No chance!

This is very manageable and there are countless examples of it working.....if it's managed, and that does create some jobs. So, as a benefit, it's good for the economy too. 'The Game is the Teacher'

What is this Dallas Open you speak of??? Never heard of it.

There aren't enough qualified refs to have a ref at every table. This was evident at the Ultimate 10 Ball in Frisco a few years ago.

9 Ball - 9 on the spot
10 ball - 1 on the spot
8 ball - head ball on the spot
A template rack should not be thicker than the spot.
Pattern racking should not be allowed.
A good rack is a good rack

Having a rack that racks perfect consistently is good. Anyone that complains about is outing themselves as a rack tech.

Now......let play pool.

Ray

 

[CreeDo]

renfro... first, apologies, I sometimes word my disagreements a little harshly. Pseudoscience was a low blow.

What I'm driving at is you have a theory, but no evidence of it. Saying "it's physics 101. Force vectors." doesn't constitute evidence!

I need something more concrete showing that the rack is altering the natural paths of balls, because according to joe tucker's video and my personal experience... the wing ball dropping IS the natural path of the ball.

Evidence would be careful measurements of ball weights, velocity, friction, our friend the force vector... all mixed into a mathematical formula that proves the magic rack sends balls on a different path.

Alternately, evidence would also be high speed video showing the path the balls take with a normal rack, and the altered path caused by the MBR.

Your theory seems to be based on the fact that the wing ball goes very very often with the magic rack. If that's your evidence... tell me, where is the wing ball supposed to go, in a perfectly tight rack with no magic rack? If it's supposed to go in the hole, but only at a certain range of speeds and angles, then what range of speeds or angles?

---

Oh, yeah, neutral rackers topic: while I see JCIN's point that a pro will complain no matter what, a rational and reasonable pro (i.e. not Earl) will be less likely to stall and cry if he honestly believes the racker is competent and trying his hardest. It takes any animosity and butthurt out of the equation. Nobody thinks they're getting slugged intentionally. Nobody thinks the winner is leaving a convenient gap so he can facilitate the wing ball. Remove two potential sources of conflict and you have fewer conflicts.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Anyone that doesn't think Referees (male or female) don't give class and fairness to a Pro Event can publicly debate this with me on azbilliards run out radio. it's time to bring back Referees, TV and Dress Codes for the players. The Game deserves this and if we want to "walk the walk," then we need to do the right thing to bring respect back to the Game and it's players.

I could not agree with you more and I could not have worded it any better. Pageantry and ceremony add majesty to the game.

The point that is being made here is that referees are not always practical and available. Pool should not require a referee to administer fairness during racking and breaking. The rules of the game have to be able to get that job done (for when referees are not possible).

 

[The Renfro]

renfro... first, apologies, I sometimes word my disagreements a little harshly. Pseudoscience was a low blow.

What I'm driving at is you have a theory, but no evidence of it. Saying "it's physics 101. Force vectors." doesn't constitute evidence!

I need something more concrete showing that the rack is altering the natural paths of balls, because according to joe tucker's video and my personal experience... the wing ball dropping IS the natural path of the ball.

Evidence would be careful measurements of ball weights, velocity, friction, our friend the force vector... all mixed into a mathematical formula that proves the magic rack sends balls on a different path.

Alternately, evidence would also be high speed video showing the path the balls take with a normal rack, and the altered path caused by the MBR.

Your theory seems to be based on the fact that the wing ball goes very very often with the magic rack. If that's your evidence... tell me, where is the wing ball supposed to go, in a perfectly tight rack with no magic rack? If it's supposed to go in the hole, but only at a certain range of speeds and angles, then what range of speeds or angles?

---

Oh, yeah, neutral rackers topic: while I see JCIN's point that a pro will complain no matter what, a rational and reasonable pro (i.e. not Earl) will be less likely to stall and cry if he honestly believes the racker is competent and trying his hardest. It takes any animosity and butthurt out of the equation. Nobody thinks they're getting slugged intentionally. Nobody thinks the winner is leaving a convenient gap so he can facilitate the wing ball. Remove two potential sources of conflict and you have fewer conflicts.

OK this I can go with....

The wing ball is wired in the 9ball rack even without a template if you know what you are doing so that's not the basis of my theory....

I'll try and get some video together this weekend if at all possible of the pathing of the balls on the break... Not sure how precise I can get on breaking the rack the same but I will put some thought into it....

Chris

 

[The Renfro]

This is where you folks just don't get it. Pool is a local sport everywhere in this country. What I do is relevent to the 1000 or so players in my area. Not 5 of those 1000 could tell you anything about the Mosconi cup. IMO, C.J. and the rest of that community has got to embrace this concept to further their cause (and mine too).

Paul I owe you an apology for calling you a crackpot room owner... While I don't agree with some of your ideas you do a lot for pool in your area... for that alone you are due enough respect from me to not resort to name calling....

Chris

 

[satman]

I like this post Ray

What is this Dallas Open you speak of??? Never heard of it.

There aren't enough qualified refs to have a ref at every table. This was evident at the Ultimate 10 Ball in Frisco a few years ago.

9 Ball - 9 on the spot
10 ball - 1 on the spot
8 ball - head ball on the spot
A template rack should not be thicker than the spot.
Pattern racking should not be allowed.
A good rack is a good rack

Having a rack that racks perfect consistently is good. Anyone that complains about is outing themselves as a rack tech.

Now......let play pool.

Ray

I gotta agree. If a rack gives the same rack every time, you can let anyone rack, and it don't have to be a ref. Both guys,, or girls, get the same rack, and if a guy breaks better than you, go practice. As long as everyone gets the balls racked random, and the same, let the best players run.

 

[JCIN]

Interesting perception of reality you have there.....................

Just gonna keep following me from thread to thread huh?

Thats cool. You want to be my friend. I understand.

 

[satman]

Like this post too.

In my mind the issue is not who racks the balls. The issue is we have to even talk about it because its accepted that players will gaffe racks because thats just how it is so lets find a way to protect them from themselves.

We get the game we deserve.

(Maybe that can be my new catch phrase.)

JC has the right idea. Until we get enough players to accept that not racking fairly, is doing harm in the long run, it will continue to get worse. Take the rack away from the players in the match. Don't like the magic rack, then you have to have someone who will rack the balls fairly for both players. And, a rule that the players can't be attacking the ref, saying they got a bad rack. Dress code and rules of conduct, equally enforced for ALL players.

 

[Richardson]

Needs to be a set order, or opponents rack again. Maybe Break from the box also?

9 ball is a joke of a game anyhow. I just finished watching SVB -vs- Dennis @USBTC. Absolute joke watching them place the balls a certain way, break at 18mph and see the balls line up over and over. Although somehow Dennis didn't make the wing ball.

<edit> Very dramatic watching them get 1/2" out of line once a rack.

 

[Brandon79ta]

Lets see if we can "earl proof" the racker idea with a few rules.

1. If you don't accept the rack you forfeit the break.
2. If you argue with the racker about the rack you forfeit the match.
3. Once during the tournament you can request a different racker. They will be chosen at random. If you don't accept that person you forfeit the match.

I'm sure the list would get a bit longer after awhile but that is a good start. Sure some pros, like earl, would avoid the tournaments with these rules but once enough tournaments started this they would have to give in or go get a job.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Managing a pool tournament or pool match especially is pretty simple, IF.......

Lets see if we can "earl proof" the racker idea with a few rules.

1. If you don't accept the rack you forfeit the break.
2. If you argue with the racker about the rack you forfeit the match.
3. Once during the tournament you can request a different racker. They will be chosen at random. If you don't accept that person you forfeit the match.

I'm sure the list would get a bit longer after awhile but that is a good start. Sure some pros, like earl, would avoid the tournaments with these rules but once enough tournaments started this they would have to give in or go get a job.

Yes, this is the correct way to go about it, it's called MANAGEMENT. What some don't realize is you have to manage people or they don't just automatically do what you want. That's why movies have directors, sports have Referees and businesses have managers of all departments.

Pool has no Referees or Managers. There are simple solutions to most of the problems if there were just managers and referees at these events.

I was the DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS at a Private Club with 630,000 members, with 5 Managers, 22 Bartenders, 25 Servers, 6 Hostesses, and some nights had 22 security on the floor, and outside the parameter of the building.

We had policies and procedures and people did their job, and we could handle 3000 guests in a night of operations. This required Management!

Managing a pool tournament or pool match especially is pretty simple, IF you manage the players and the operations of the event. This only requires a REFEREE and a Player Manager to be better organized.

'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley

 

[The Renfro]

The main issue of having a neutral racker is getting the volunteers... You really can't afford to pay them and depending on volunteers to have to show up is asking a lot....

One thing that might be doable is asking the local armed forces recruiting office to supply some soldiers for the detail. They could set up a recruiting booth at the venue in exchange for using the soldiers...

The demographics for a pool room and the military really aren't that different. The biggest issue is that large tournaments might require too many soldiers.... I guess 1 racker for 4 tables???

Chris

 

[CJ Wiley]

Do the players now break any written rules or do they even have any?

What is this Dallas Open you speak of??? Never heard of it.

The DALLAS OPEN was the tournament I held at CJ's Billiard Palace several times. When we had the semis and finals we had a REFEREE racking the balls, and never had a complaint. These matches were televised and I do have them ready to be released to watch again very soon.

Players aren't allowed to criticize the Referees, just like they aren't in any other sport. If they do, they risk forfeiting their match and maybe their future. Like everything in life there must be "consequences" for negative behavior.

Do the players now break any written rules or do they even have any? Are there any policies and procedures at the current tournaments? Are they enforced? Are the players aware of how they are expected to act and are they specifically told or are they just "expected" to so the right thing?

Are there powder, towels, water, Referees at the table now like there were when we played in pool's "prime"? Are the players names announced so the spectators even know who is playing? Are these things being managed or are they just problems waiting to unfold so people can say how "bad" pool is? Is pool really "bad" or is it simply unorganized and mismanaged? I don't know, but I can make a pretty good guess based on understanding normal business models that are proven to be effective. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

This will solve the racking problem AND it will add more class and prestige

The main issue of having a neutral racker is getting the volunteers... You really can't afford to pay them and depending on volunteers to have to show up is asking a lot....

One thing that might be doable is asking the local armed forces recruiting office to supply some soldiers for the detail. They could set up a recruiting booth at the venue in exchange for using the soldiers...

The demographics for a pool room and the military really aren't that different. The biggest issue is that large tournaments might require too many soldiers.... I guess 1 racker for 4 tables???

Chris

If they really want to fix the problem it will need to be managed. We are seeing what happens when there's no management and it obviously doesn't work. We don't need to feel bad because it wouldn't work in any other business or sporting event either.

League players would make the best Referees. I can give some management pointers on how to put this together if a promoter is really interested. The first thing is you have to give them responsibility that makes them feel important and needed. A lot of tournament directors do it for free just because they like telling people what to do. This is something that needs to be utilized and implemented.

This will solve the racking problem AND it will add more class and prestige to the Professional Events. I'm only talking about "PRO EVENTS" because that's the topic of this thread "BAN MAGIC RACK FOR PRO EVENTS".....I don't care what kind of rack is used, it's just better to have a neutral racker and I could go into gory detain of the "why's", but I'll save that one for some other time.