Banking on a Valley barbox

[bdorman]

Last night I played on Valley barbox for the first time. It played pretty much as I expected, except the rails shortened bank shots incredibly.

The least amount of speed shortened banks like I'd expect a normal table to shorten at high speed. And at higher speeds the OB came off the rail darn near perpendicular!

Is this typical for a Valley or was it probably unique to this table?

BTW, the table has the old nappy-type cloth (not worsted) if that makes a difference. I usually play on a 8-ft. table with Simonis 860HR and consider its rails to bank normally (mirror image; a little less than mirror image at speed).

 

[Allen Brown]

What table do you usually play on? I usually play on Valleys, but when I play on Diamond blue labels I miss my banks short for a little while.

 

[buckshotshoey]

Get down on you knees and sight down the long cushion. Sometimes the rails are installed with the center pocket pushed toward the center of the table. That makes banks go short. I look at this on every table I play on. Just one of several causes of banks going short.

 

[Banks]

On a "standard" Valley, banks have a tendency to go a little long. If they're shortening up a bit, could be any number of things.

 

[StraightPoolIU]

I play mostly on Gold Crowns, and when I play league on Valleys I tend to think they bank a little bit shorter than what I'm used to.

 

[pt109]

Last night I played on Valley barbox for the first time. It played pretty much as I expected, except the rails shortened bank shots incredibly.

The least amount of speed shortened banks like I'd expect a normal table to shorten at high speed. And at higher speeds the OB came off the rail darn near perpendicular!

Is this typical for a Valley or was it probably unique to this table?

BTW, the table has the old nappy-type cloth (not worsted) if that makes a difference. I usually play on a 8-ft. table with Simonis 860HR and consider its rails to bank normally (mirror image; a little less than mirror image at speed).

Banking on a Valley is a good memory exercise....usually all six rails react different.
If a rail is banking REAL short, it's almost invariably the cushion needs adjusting...
.....the nose of the cushion is too low.....easily fixed by adjusting the screws that hold
the rubber....there's just three of them.

Some people loosen the screws and put some padding at the bottom of the rubber.....
....that will tip the nose up.

 

[Dunnn51]

On a "standard" Valley, banks have a tendency to go a little long. If they're shortening up a bit, could be any number of things.

This has been how I have seen it judging from the well-worn 7 ft Valley tables in the bar league I used to play. English & speed have a lot to say when shooting open angle banks.

On a Diamond table I have found it beneficial to "add 1" for them tighter pockets. :wink:

 

[West Point 1987]

Get down on you knees and sight down the long cushion. Sometimes the rails are installed with the center pocket pushed toward the center of the table. That makes banks go short. I look at this on every table I play on. Just one of several causes of banks going short.

Bingo. The rails aren't straight. Those side pockets will jump right out and bite you when you try and run up the rail, more often than not. As big as those buckets are, though, why would you need to bank at all on a Valley? You can pretty much cut them into the side pocket from everywhere!

 

[bdorman]

Banking on a Valley is a good memory exercise....usually all six rails react different.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) it's not my table. It's at a local bar and I seriously doubt the owner (or other customers) care.

But I will try the "sight down the rail line" idea.

Funny that some people's experience is that they bank long.

Thanks for the ideas.

 

[ShootingArts]

this, and the other

Banking on a Valley is a good memory exercise....usually all six rails react different.
If a rail is banking REAL short, it's almost invariably the cushion needs adjusting...
.....the nose of the cushion is too low.....easily fixed by adjusting the screws that hold
the rubber....there's just three of them.

Some people loosen the screws and put some padding at the bottom of the rubber.....
....that will tip the nose up.

Yeah, I know I skipped "that". Pretty common for the mechanics recovering Valleys to keep a garbage can full of rails with them already recovered to save down time on the table(s). This causes rails to be mixed and matched between goodness only knows how many tables resulting in every rail being different even if installed correctly. Every cushion is a different age and has suffered different levels of abuse.

What may be BDorman's issue though is playing on a fairly new Valley. No idea when they changed since I rarely play on bar tables and the ones I play on are usually over voting age but I played on a nearly new Valley recently. It played exactly as described! Short, shorter, and all but reversed the ball. Banked far differently than an old Valley or any commercial table I have played on. Banked OK shooting very slowly, shortened up a lot with even medium speed shots.

Hu

 

[pt109]

Yeah, I know I skipped "that". Pretty common for the mechanics recovering Valleys to keep a garbage can full of rails with them already recovered to save down time on the table(s). This causes rails to be mixed and matched between goodness only knows how many tables resulting in every rail being different even if installed correctly. Every cushion is a different age and has suffered different levels of abuse.

What may be BDorman's issue though is playing on a fairly new Valley. No idea when they changed since I rarely play on bar tables and the ones I play on are usually over voting age but I played on a nearly new Valley recently. It played exactly as described! Short, shorter, and all but reversed the ball. Banked far differently than an old Valley or any commercial table I have played on. Banked OK shooting very slowly, shortened up a lot with even medium speed shots.

Hu

I've owned some Valleys, Hu....had one where a good stiff bank would send whitey to
the other side of the room.....I'd just had it recovered.
It only took a screwdriver and some masking tape to fix.
My buddy takes off the outside trim and takes off the wood-backed rail (3 screws)....
....he put masking tape on the BOTTOM part of the wood....therefore changing the cushion profile...
...reinstalled....
...and the rail banked reasonable.
Valleys are easy to work on......

My only problem .....if you're playing a match on a Valley, how the hell do you get on the hill?

 

[NobodySpecial]

There's a bit of an optical illusion that can some into play when banking on a table of a different size than what you're used to. It's hard for me to explain, I bet.

Say you always bank on a 4.5x9. You get used to the target pocket being around 4.5 feet from the banked cushion. But then you switch to a 3.5x7, and that pocket isn't there anymore. It's almost a foot closer to the banking cushion. So a bank that might be hit at the perfect angle to go on a 4.5x9 will be short on a 3.5x7.

I did a diagram of this a million years ago, back in the RSB/ASP days. Maybe I'll be able to find it.

 

[ShootingArts]

the new one I played on was screwy all the way around

I've owned some Valleys, Hu....had one where a good stiff bank would send whitey to
the other side of the room.....I'd just had it recovered.
It only took a screwdriver and some masking tape to fix.
My buddy takes off the outside trim and takes off the wood-backed rail (3 screws)....
....he put masking tape on the BOTTOM part of the wood....therefore changing the cushion profile...
...reinstalled....
...and the rail banked reasonable.
Valleys are easy to work on......

My only problem .....if you're playing a match on a Valley, how the hell do you get on the hill?

The new Valley's cushions were super grabby, could have been a height issue but they were all consistently grabby. I put it down to never playing on anything but an old Valley before. This one banked way different. I have played on a no-name home table that somebody had bought six or eight of to try to open a pool room a couple years ago and it seemed to have the same cushions as this Valley. The banks were so far off on the home table that I decided to not try to adjust to them, adjusting between Diamonds and Gold Crowns was enough to remember.

Trying to figure out that hill thing for you, it just wouldn't sound the same getting valley-valley with somebody. Sounds a little obscene to me!

Hu

 

[buckshotshoey]

Cushions that are full of chalk dust will grab and exacerbate any spin on the object ball. Sometimes on those tables, you have to use gearing english on the cue ball (opposite to the spin you want on the object ball) to put a little running english on the object ball....when hitting firm bank shots. Or...just measure your banks to go a little long to compensate.

 

[bdorman]

It played exactly as described! Short, shorter, and all but reversed the ball. Banked OK shooting very slowly, shortened up a lot with even medium speed shots.
Hu

Perfect description of how this table played.

There's a bit of an optical illusion that can some into play when banking on a table of a different size than what you're used to. It's hard for me to explain, I bet.

I would agree if I played banks by "feel," but I don't. I use a number system (Zero-X) so I know when I've got a 36-18 bank. I'd see the OB hit exactly at 18 but come up 1/3-diamond short!

Cushions that are full of chalk dust will grab and exacerbate any spin on the object ball. Sometimes on those tables, you have to use gearing english on the cue ball (opposite to the spin you want on the object ball) to put a little running english on the object ball....when hitting firm bank shots. Or...just measure your banks to go a little long to compensate.

By the 5th or 6th bank shot I was doing both. It was the only thing that worked!

Thanks.

 

[ideologist]

Valleys are very speed dependent. If you hit the ball easy, it goes way long. If you hit it with any firmness, it goes way short.

Every table is different unless directly ordered from Valley yesterday. Most are sloppy vending company disasters. Always warm up with a couple of 'automatic' banks to feel the rails out before depending on them.

 

[backplaying]

Bingo. The rails aren't straight. Those side pockets will jump right out and bite you when you try and run up the rail, more often than not. As big as those buckets are, though, why would you need to bank at all on a Valley? You can pretty much cut them into the side pocket from everywhere!

The side pockets on a valley are much tougher than on a diamond bar box. Also, diamonds bank shorter than any valley I've played on.