basavich bashing?

Bobby said:
The subject of how good Fats was comes up every now
and then and there are precious few who claim that
Fats could play well. I never saw Fats play but I ask
every old-time pro get a chance to talk to and they
all say he was not as good as the top players.
I've asked Johhny Ervolino, Cisero Murphy, and
few other lesser known players and none where
at all impressed with Fats playing, they did
however say he was very good at matching up, but
could never hang with the top guys playing even.

Without titles, it doesn't matter how he played.
It's funny, pool is the only game where you can
even have people debate over how great a player
was when the player never won anything or even
really played much in tournaments. Can you imagine
having a discussion with a group of people about
the greatest basketball players and the usual
names would be mentioned and then someone says
that there was this guy who used to play down at
the local courts who was the best ever! He was
better than Jordan and would have broken every
record in book if he had played pro. You'd be
laughed at and your story utterly disregarded.
The same would be true for baseball, tennis,
golf, even other cuesports such as snooker and
billiards. Whenever I hear how good a hustler
was or road player I just dismiss it out of hand.
Click to expand...

A fine post, Bobby, but this is a very tricky subject, for pool is a game in which some believe the best income is available away from the venues of professional competition.

There's a player out there whose game I have the most profound respect for. He is one of the most elite action players you'll find, but his tournament playing resume is really rather plain. I've met him and I liked him as a person, too. Still, after all is said and done, I believe that those unable to excel on the biggest stages against the toughest international fields (meaning the WPC, the BCA Open, the US Open and Derby City) cannot reasonably be given the acclaim due to true champions. Winning tournaments against truly elite fields involves knocking off champion after champion, and it is only the truly elite that are up to the challenge of collecting numerous titles in such tournaments.

I've always wondered whether the player to whom I refer, whose play has impressed the hell out of me, is worthy of being counted among the best, and I look forward to hearing anyone else's opinion on this matter. Oh, one last thing ---- his name is John Schmidt, who, as we all know, is one seriously straight shooter.
 
sjm said:
A fine post, Bobby, but this is a very tricky subject, for pool is a game in which some believe the best income is available away from the venues of professional competition.

There's a player out there whose game I have the most profound respect for. He is one of the most elite action players you'll find, but his tournament playing resume is really rather plain. I've met him and I liked him as a person, too. Still, after all is said and done, I believe that those unable to excel on the biggest stages against the toughest international fields (meaning the WPC, the BCA Open, the US Open and Derby City) cannot reasonably be given the acclaim due to true champions. Winning tournaments against truly elite fields involves knocking off champion after champion, and it is only the truly elite that are up to the challenge of collecting numerous titles in such tournaments.

I've always wondered whether the player to whom I refer, whose play has impressed the hell out of me, is worthy of being counted among the best, and I look forward to hearing anyone else's opinion on this matter. Oh, one last thing ---- his name is John Schmidt, who, as we all know, is one seriously straight shooter.
Click to expand...

I agree with you 100% about John Schmidt. He plays
all the games at very high level. I suspect he
will rack up quite a few titles in his lifetime.

Oh by the way SJM, I've figured out who you are.
I won't mention your name here but we've played many
times in the past at ABC West : )
 
Last edited:
Bobby said:
Oh by the way SJM, I've figured out who you are.
I won't mention your name here but we've played many times in the past at ABC West : )
Click to expand...

Right on, Bobby, and I've enjoyed every single one of those games. You are a perfect gentleman both at and away from the table. , not to mention a rock solid pool player, and I hope we get to play again soon.
 
juegabillar said:
Although medication exists for this condition, one of the side effects is "dry mouth" which requires a person to sip small amounts of liquid to avoid the effect; thus filling your bladder, and causing you to go again to the bathroom.


OAB is a bothersome medical condition that affects more than 17 million men and women of all ages,...


OAB adversely affects a person's daily routines and quality of life. Approximately two-thirds of men and women report that their symptoms have an effect on daily living such that they have a poor quality of sleep, more depression, and an overall lower quality of daily life than persons who do not experience OAB.
Click to expand...
Damn, I thought I was addicted to crank and diet pills. The symptoms are exactly the same. Turns out I just have OAB.
 
sjm said:
Right on, Bobby, and I've enjoyed every single one of those games. You are a perfect gentleman both at and away from the table. , not to mention a rock solid pool player, and I hope we get to play again soon.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the kind words SJM, I too enjoyed our
matches. I remember learning all about two-way
9-ball shots from you. I haven't played in about
a year but will probably make a comeback soon.
Take care.
 
Just a thought ....

juegabillar says -

"OAB adversely affects a person's daily routines and quality of life".

SO DOES "OHB"!

TY & GL
 
Bobby said:
Oh by the way SJM, I've figured out who you are.
I won't mention your name here but we've played many
times in the past at ABC West : )
Click to expand...

Come on, spill the beans. I can tell by sjm's posts that he is one of the most knowledeable people we have. Sometimes I'm like a little kid. "Ive got a secret", and then I go bonkers trying to get the answer.

Dave
 
vapoolplayer said:
anyone who runs 400 balls has my vote........

thanks

VAP
Click to expand...

VAP,
I had a very interesting conversation with John Schmidt at this year's DCC. When I complimented him on his 112 ball run (last year in a gambling session at DCC) vs. Pagulayan, he remembered that I had kept score in the audience for the whole match, and said that he felt that run (performed in competition, for money, on a tight pocket table, against a stellar opponent) was a more significant accomplishment than his 400 ball run (on a loose pocket table in practice). He is definitely studying the game, and thinks that he is a threat to run 400 anytime he plays on an easy table. Competitive runs should be considered separately from practice runs in my opinion. I also think that I am NEVER going to gamble with someone who can run 400 balls on any kind of table.
 
Williebetmore said:
VAP,
I had a very interesting conversation with John Schmidt at this year's DCC. When I complimented him on his 112 ball run (last year in a gambling session at DCC) vs. Pagulayan, he remembered that I had kept score in the audience for the whole match, and said that he felt that run (performed in competition, for money, on a tight pocket table, against a stellar opponent) was a more significant accomplishment than his 400 ball run (on a loose pocket table in practice). He is definitely studying the game, and thinks that he is a threat to run 400 anytime he plays on an easy table. Competitive runs should be considered separately from practice runs in my opinion. I also think that I am NEVER going to gamble with someone who can run 400 balls on any kind of table.
Click to expand...

i agree that they should be separate. and i also agree that 400 balls on ANY table is right sporty to say the least.

fun fact: inside pool's article this month on player of the year thomas engert says that he holds the world record for 14:1 on a 9 ft table with 491 balls!!!

also congrats to keith for being named one of four co-players of the year on the joss tour alon with kid delicious, santos, and mike zuglan.

thanks

VAP
 
Williebetmore said:
VAP,
I had a very interesting conversation with John Schmidt at this year's DCC. When I complimented him on his 112 ball run (last year in a gambling session at DCC) vs. Pagulayan, he remembered that I had kept score in the audience for the whole match, and said that he felt that run (performed in competition, for money, on a tight pocket table, against a stellar opponent) was a more significant accomplishment than his 400 ball run (on a loose pocket table in practice). He is definitely studying the game, and thinks that he is a threat to run 400 anytime he plays on an easy table. Competitive runs should be considered separately from practice runs in my opinion. I also think that I am NEVER going to gamble with someone who can run 400 balls on any kind of table.
Click to expand...


This is sort of a six of one, half a dozen of the other sorta thing. Competition often can bring out the best in a player. I know that my personal bests have always been achieved when there's something involved (be it a tournament. league match or gambling situation). On the otherhand, in a long-run situation in straight pool, there will be times when a decision needs to be made: take a risky shot or play safe. If the stakes are high enough and the competition warrants respect, a player may end a monster run with a safety whereas, had it been practice, a ridiculous shot might have been taken.

I will say however, that once a player reaches a certain number, the stakes are no longer a factor. The moment John Schmidt passed the 300-mark, he could have been in the finals of a tournament, playing for $1,000,000 or practicing in his livingroom. The pressure is all the same. Winning is no longer the objective and becomes a non-issue. The run in and of itself is the only concern of the shooter.

When the U.S. Open Straight Pool was held at Roseland back in 2000 (and I'm sure SJM will also agree), I was amazed by how many players were running a significant number of balls. It seemed as though at any time, there was a monster run occurring at one of the tables. In my opinion, it is the pressure of a worthy opponent that forces a competitor to think clearly and play at a higher level. I remember no more than a year or so ago, while managing Amsterdam Billiards, Mika Immonen walked in vowing to break the high-run for the room. He'd start with a standard side-rack break shot and start over from that same position if he missed. He never ran over 50 and part of me thinks it's because nobody was shooting back at him. Mika, as we all know, thrives under pressure (and probably only under pressure).

So while I understand what you mean that practice and competition are different, I do not think this necessarily applies to a high-run situation, especially when a world record is involved. If a player has any sense of the accomplishment at hand (and usually they do), he will feel pressure no matter what.

Just my thoughts. You're welcome to disagree but it's just my opinion.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Just my thoughts. You're welcome to disagree but it's just my opinion.
Click to expand...

JR,
I don't disagree at all. You are exactly right. The 2 types of situations are very different with regard to safety play, and both situations have their own type of pressure. I'm just jealous of you and SJM getting to see top-level straight pool all the time.
 
Williebetmore said:
JR,
I don't disagree at all. You are exactly right. The 2 types of situations are very different with regard to safety play, and both situations have their own type of pressure. I'm just jealous of you and SJM getting to see top-level straight pool all the time.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, we don't see it nearly as much as the history of NYC would suggest. I remember when Amsterdam Billiards first opened, it wasn't surprising to see several straight pool games going on throughout the room. Even the lines on the table were for straight pool. At the time, I knew much more about straight pool than 9-ball and I was a relative beginner. As is the case with most of the country, now you will find 9-ball to be the predominant game and straight pool to lag far behind. Even though the lines on the table are still drawn, nine-ball break-paths are by far the most evident feature on the front tables.

The underlying problem is none of the new players are playing the game and there are rarely tournaments for the few left to shine. When I first began playing, the question, "What's your high run" was the measurement used for the totum poll. Now, it's been downgraded to a mere alsoran. It would be nice though if there could be a 14.1 tournament featuring Mika Immonen, Tony Robles, George San Soucci, Danny Barouti, Tom Walter, Steve Lipsky, Jonathan Smith, Flaco Rodriguez and all the other 100+ runners that frequent the nyc rooms.


Jude M. Rosenstock
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
This is sort of a six of one, half a dozen of the other sorta thing. Competition often can bring out the best in a player. I know that my personal bests have always been achieved when there's something involved (be it a tournament. league match or gambling situation). On the otherhand, in a long-run situation in straight pool, there will be times when a decision needs to be made: take a risky shot or play safe. If the stakes are high enough and the competition warrants respect, a player may end a monster run with a safety whereas, had it been practice, a ridiculous shot might have been taken.

I will say however, that once a player reaches a certain number, the stakes are no longer a factor. The moment John Schmidt passed the 300-mark, he could have been in the finals of a tournament, playing for $1,000,000 or practicing in his livingroom. The pressure is all the same. Winning is no longer the objective and becomes a non-issue. The run in and of itself is the only concern of the shooter.

When the U.S. Open Straight Pool was held at Roseland back in 2000 (and I'm sure SJM will also agree), I was amazed by how many players were running a significant number of balls. It seemed as though at any time, there was a monster run occurring at one of the tables. In my opinion, it is the pressure of a worthy opponent that forces a competitor to think clearly and play at a higher level. I remember no more than a year or so ago, while managing Amsterdam Billiards, Mika Immonen walked in vowing to break the high-run for the room. He'd start with a standard side-rack break shot and start over from that same position if he missed. He never ran over 50 and part of me thinks it's because nobody was shooting back at him. Mika, as we all know, thrives under pressure (and probably only under pressure).

So while I understand what you mean that practice and competition are different, I do not think this necessarily applies to a high-run situation, especially when a world record is involved. If a player has any sense of the accomplishment at hand (and usually they do), he will feel pressure no matter what.

Just my thoughts. You're welcome to disagree but it's just my opinion.
Click to expand...


I agree totally about Mika not having an opponent
to drive him to a high run. Around 1996 or 1997
Johnny Ervolino had 100+ runs several days in a row
gambling with opponents on a tight (4 1/2")
pocketed table. So I'm thinking he would run even
higher on a loose table, so I ask him to try and
say that I'll rack for him all day if need be but
he explains that really high runs rarely happen
that way. I finally convince him to try, well after
about 4 hours or so he never runs more than 70 balls.
He had loads of 30-50 ball runs in fact I was
writing them down and it looked something like:
51, 38, 70, 44, 48, 29, 56, 43 etc. and the runs
always ended with an easy shot that he missed, so
finally he gives up. Don't you know the very next
day while playing someone he pops off a 182!
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
It would be nice though if there could be a 14.1 tournament featuring Mika Immonen, Tony Robles, George San Soucci, Danny Barouti, Tom Walter, Steve Lipsky, Jonathan Smith, Flaco Rodriguez and all the other 100+ runners that frequent the nyc rooms.
Click to expand...

Would be even better if Jean Balukas, who has run in the 130's, played. For practical purposes, there is such a tournament, and it's the NJ State Straight Pool Championships, played only a few miles outside of New York City.
 
Why don't they just apply a shot clock at all tournaments? It should be illegal to take five minutes between each shot like I saw Fat Boy doing at the tournament in LA. When he played Owen it was a complete absurdity. A complete embarrassment for pool. The tournament director kept threatening to put a shot clock on him, but never followed through on his threat.
 
westcoast said:
Why don't they just apply a shot clock at all tournaments? It should be illegal to take five minutes between each shot like I saw Fat Boy doing at the tournament in LA. When he played Owen it was a complete absurdity. A complete embarrassment for pool. The tournament director kept threatening to put a shot clock on him, but never followed through on his threat.
Click to expand...

The real problem is that putting someone on the shot clock is at the tournament director's discretion. In WPBA pool, it works a little differently. If the race to nine match is scheduled for two hours, then if the players haven't finished eight racks by the one hour mark, they, generally, both go on the shot clock for the remainder of the match. That's why WPBA events always stay on or very close to schedule. Perhaps the men should try doing it the women's way. The fans would be the big winners.
 
Reply to Jude - The East Coast IS STRIGHT POOL.

Jude Rosenstock said:
Unfortunately, we don't see it nearly as much as the history of NYC would suggest.

I was in "DA MIZ's" poolroom one time to play/hustle a bookie. I was supposed to be a Salesman. The kid running the place asked me if I wanted to play a game of straight pool to 150 for "The Cost Of The Time" Double or nothing. I saw a great opportunity to "Set A Picture" in the Bookie's mind because he was in there and kinda watching. THIS WAS PERFECT.- EXCEPT -
ONLY 1 PROBLEM.
I broke and this kid (maybe 15) runs 150 and out. The bookie never even got to see me shoot a ball.
I vowed right then to never play anyone from the East coast ANY Straight Pool.

The next day "Da Miz" comes in and offers me the 5, 7 & breaks playing 9 Ball for $20 a game. It took every bit of my fortitude & humility to refuse this game (The Nuts) because I have never really been a Fan of his (to say the least), and because it would have screwed up my chance to get to the bookie.

Finally (on the 3rd day), The Bookie & I start to play. It turns out that "Da Miz" actually HELPED me to take off that score. Of course he never realized it.

TY & GL
Click to expand...
 
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