basavich bashing?

[NorthCarolinian]

---------------quote----------------------------
II would back Danny against anybody on your list.
-----------------------------------------------
I wish you would do that. I would venture to say I'd be 9-3 at worst, 12-0 at best. If you would do that I'd buy all the beer and food for the entertainment, well in the end you would be the one paying for everything

 

[Gerald]

I am not bashing Danny nor do I believe anyone else who has commented negatively on his slow play are doing that. I think in the long run and for the good of the game he must work on speeding it up if he can and I hear he is working on that. However has anybody ever thought about the possibility what the problems would be if they broadcast him live on T.V. It would be a disaster. They would have to put him on a shot clock. There is not a sport I can think of that does not have a shot clock of some sort. You must institute action in a competitive game or put everyone to sleep. That is the main reason they went to shot clocks in baskeball, because stalling was boring and bad for t.v. Someone metioned waiting forever for a pitcher to pitch in baseball but does that poster know that the pitcher "must" deliver the ball within a designated time frame and it is less than a minute. Imagine if BCN was televising live this year and charging you for the Basavich, Bustamante match. As I mentioned on another thread in the last game of that match Danny had ball in hand on the one and we were betting over and under 7 minutes on the length of that game. Well it went over 7. For 9 ball action that is way too slow and you could never show that match live on t.v.
In that round of tournament matches their match took about 45 minutes longer than every other one. I know baseball can even put you to sleep even with their attempts to speed up the game but pool should never do that. And this thread is in no way a bashing of Danny as I think he is a great player and a great person and I wish him all the best in his effort to speed up.
If he did great in matches with a clock before then maybe just instittute a 30 or 45 second clock in all tournaments and for everybody.

He has, it appears, different speeds he uses for different opponents and situations. I had never seen as slow a match as Danny's and Bustamantes. It drove me crazy and I would never pay to watch that type of matchup again but it did the job as Danny's game completely took Busty out of his game. The next night I believe he played Santos, and his pace was completely different. Now I don't know if it was because of the layouts or what the reason was but it did'nt resemble the night before. I should have been more attentive but I was there to watch Efren and Archer who were playing on the next table about 7' in front of me and anyway when Danny wasn't shooting he was perched on a stool and blocked the entire table from view. One thing is for sure he shoots lights out and seems totally in control at all times. But--I still feel that Efren and Keith give me the biggest bang for my buck.

 

[LastTwo]

He has, it appears, different speeds he uses for different opponents and situations. I had never seen as slow a match as Danny's and Bustamantes. It drove me crazy and I would never pay to watch that type of matchup again but it did the job as Danny's game completely took Busty out of his game. The next night I believe he played Santos, and his pace was completely different. Now I don't know if it was because of the layouts or what the reason was but it did'nt resemble the night before. I should have been more attentive but I was there to watch Efren and Archer who were playing on the next table about 7' in front of me and anyway when Danny wasn't shooting he was perched on a stool and blocked the entire table from view. One thing is for sure he shoots lights out and seems totally in control at all times. But--I still feel that Efren and Keith give me the biggest bang for my buck.

Gerald, are you talking about Danny and Bustamante at the Bike casino in LA? If so, Danny's slow play didn't bother Bustamante one bit. Every time Bustamante had an open shot he ran out. The entire match of a race to 11, going hill-hill, was a break and run festival. I think they had safety battles in like 3 different games, including the last one. Bustamante didn't miss a ball, Danny missed 1. That's not bad for a match ending with the score 11-10!!

 

[gabesmom]

Being the best road player has nothing to do with being the best player...Its about matching up the best, total sales package, and getting paid....The ability to woof and being a salesman go a long way...If your only goal is to make money on the road why would you ever want to try to beat the world....You just try to make money..So of course no matter who you are why would you want to match up against top notch players when you can take lesser players money....

If you had a choice between working hard for years to make a million dollars or winning the Lottery for a million which would you choose?????

Hi TheKiss. I totally agree with you here! Making money, having money to pay bills, have a lifestyle, and enjoy life is the most important. Players have to play, and of course, be prepared to take their losses at times, but it's important to make the choices for the goal to come out ahead overall. It was cool that Gabe won a match over Efren -when it went to the hill - in Los Angeles a few weeks ago in that tournament where Gabe took 3rd, Efren 4th, but wouldn't want to see them necessarily match up! He could lose his golfing money over and above his matching up money. haha Efren is great! I've seen too many players in past years with egos about their game, and wanted to show the world that they are the best, and yet, don't have anything to show for it.

 

[piglit]

... the window is open." It is a wide open. Let me know.

Damn, dude! Give your horse a chance!! That window won't even get him in the building. You'll need to leave the door open- wide open!

http://www.azbilliards.com/thepros/2000showplayer2004.cfm?playernum=454

-piga

 

[LAMas]

Gerald, are you talking about Danny and Bustamante at the Bike casino in LA? If so, Danny's slow play didn't bother Bustamante one bit. Every time Bustamante had an open shot he ran out. The entire match of a race to 11, going hill-hill, was a break and run festival. I think they had safety battles in like 3 different games, including the last one. Bustamante didn't miss a ball, Danny missed 1. That's not bad for a match ending with the score 11-10!!

Danny and Busta were trading safeties at hill hill when, after a good shot or shots off of a safety, Busta hooked himself behind the six with the next ball in the jaws of the corner pocket. Busta tries a jump shot over the six only to hit the six giving Danny ball in hand. The match then ended 30 minutes after the last match in that round, delaying the start of the next round at that table.

Danny was using the jump stick with great accuracy but Busta was relying on using the rails and english until this shot that proved to be his demise - Busta did miss one shot.

Busta was more tolerant of Danny's slow play and Danny's blowing his nose with the tissues that were strewn about the water cup table - I hope Bust didn't catch what Danny had.

I understand that Danny has instructional videos for sale but he has an unorthodox stroke (I won't copy) where he ripples his fingers like milking a cow - different strokes....

 

[onepocketchump]

Well, there's a saying that goes "you can't choose who you draw in a tournament, but you sure can choose who you practice with and who you gamble with." Nobody who goes into action with Danny would expect anything other than ridiculously slow play, so it's tough to feel sorry for anyone who does it. If they can't handle it, let them play someone else.

Just for the sake of those preparing for the SATs ---

Danny Basavich is to Luc Salvas as the Tortoise is to:

a) the heir
b) the hair
c) the hare
d) the hayer

Five virtual dollars for the first correct response.

And WHO won that race

John

 

[onepocketchump]

That's not true! I hear Danny B. can play pool..

Fats is more of name recognition than anything else.

Maybe Fats wasn't in the super echelon but it is ludicrous to say he couldn't play. There are lots of players who will support that Fats could play.

I would bet that in his day he could beat 95% of the people playing pool today - - this includes all the league players and the bangers.

John

 

[sizl]

Maybe Fats wasn't in the super echelon but it is ludicrous to say he couldn't play. There are lots of players who will support that Fats could play.

I would bet that in his day he could beat 95% of the people playing pool today - - this includes all the league players and the bangers.

John

All I can tell you is to.............PUT THE PIPE DOWN

 

[sjm]

And WHO won that race

John

Point well taken, OPC. The tortoise got the cash on that occasion.

 

[Drake]

I am truly a POOL NUT.....But, Let me tell you this. I would rather watch Corey use his soft break for 10 straight hours playing somebody than watch Danny play with that Super slow metodical style for 10 hours. Don't get me wrong, The guy gets the cash and plays great. I thought I had ADD after watching him play T REX for the first 4 hours last year but then I noticed that the few people sweating the match after 4 hours were those people betting and they looked bored. Also, Many people feel that Danny only takes so many breaks because it frustrates his opponents so much and throws his opponents game off where he can take down the cash. I felt like I was WATCHING PAINT DRY after four hours.

 

[LAMas]

Drake,
You may be right about slow playing being a shark. Blackjack Dave tells a road story about running into a slow onepocket player that took his friend out of his game.

 

[onepocketchump]

All I can tell you is to.............PUT THE PIPE DOWN

You would lose that bet

Look at the numbers. Just for the leagues you could guess that there are about 250,000 active players in the country. I'll even spot you anouther 100,000.

So 95% of 350,000 is 315,000. Assuming that there are MAYBE 100 players in any state who could beat me with any regularity that gives us about 5000 players in the United States who play my speed or better.

From what I have heard, read and seen of Fats I don't think that I could have beat him. So, out of 350,000 players in the US alone I have no doubt that Rudolf Wanderone would have had no problem beating 345,000 of them regularly, which is well more than 95%

Now bump up the numbers to include all the people who "play pool at least once a year" and you end up with somehting like 30 million. IF only 1% of those people are top notchers that gives you 300,000 players that are my speed or better and 99% who aren't. Thus, the numbers still hold up and Fats would have been able to beat 95% of players.

Here's what happens when you stay of the pipe - you learn to analyze things correctly.

A guy does not get the gigs like Fats got ONLY through his mouth. At some point he had to show some pretty good pool prowess or he would have been just another buffoon with a big mouth. I have met plenty of people who couldn't hold a cue and could keep me in stitches with embellished stories of exploits. None of them had the combination of pool prowess and and entertainment value that Fats did though.

So, you wanna bet? )

John

 

[Gerald]

Gerald, are you talking about Danny and Bustamante at the Bike casino in LA? If so, Danny's slow play didn't bother Bustamante one bit. Every time Bustamante had an open shot he ran out. The entire match of a race to 11, going hill-hill, was a break and run festival. I think they had safety battles in like 3 different games, including the last one. Bustamante didn't miss a ball, Danny missed 1. That's not bad for a match ending with the score 11-10!!

Match was good, if one had the patience for 4 chalk ups, several walks around the table, wiping down his cue several times, rechalking and wiping the sweat from his brow several times. The guy sitting next to me timed him several times at over 4 minutes per shot--or so the guy told me. Busty told
a Filipino friend of mine the pace drove him crazy. Would I spend the $ to watch Danny again. Probably. Would I walk out if he played that slow again--definitely.

 

[juegabillar]

Taking breaks during tournaments

I read what you are talking about.

I have never played him. I will never play anyone that wants to take a 15 min break every 30 minutes, and will not play anyone that takes over 1 minute to shoot each shot.

Just my opinion.

For all we know, Danny Basavich could be diabetic or have an overactive bladder. Heavy people like Danny and myself could easily be suffering from these conditions. The condition sometimes require you to go to the bathroom every 15 minutes, 30 minutes, or every hour. It's the pits, but we have to "go" or we could embarrass ourselves.

Although medication exists for this condition, one of the side effects is "dry mouth" which requires a person to sip small amounts of liquid to avoid the effect; thus filling your bladder, and causing you to go again to the bathroom.

I'm not saying that Danny does in fact have the condition; what I'm saying is that it could be a possibility.

Here is some information about this condition:

Overactive bladder’ (OAB) is increased urinary urgency, with or without urge urinary incontinence, usually with frequency and nocturia. Urgency is the sudden, intense desire to urinate. Urge incontinence is defined as the unwanted urine leakage (referred to as "wetting accidents") that happens shortly after urgency. Urge UI is caused by involuntary bladder contractions that occur as your bladder fills. With urge UI, a person may be aware of the urge sensation but will be unable to stop leakage before reaching the toilet. Urine loss is usually in large amounts that soak underwear and even outer clothing. Frequency is urinating more than eight times in a day.

OAB is a bothersome medical condition that affects more than 17 million men and women of all ages, although its incidence increases significantly with age.

OAB adversely affects a person's daily routines and quality of life. Approximately two-thirds of men and women report that their symptoms have an effect on daily living such that they have a poor quality of sleep, more depression, and an overall lower quality of daily life than persons who do not experience OAB.

Since I was diagnosed with the condition, I have refrained myself from competition. I now play recreationally because some people believe this is a "sharking" method instead of a medical condition.

In other words, we should not be quick to criticize people who have to take frequent breaks.

Just my 2 cents on this subject.

 

[watchez]

juegabillar---a nice well thought post, but as far as I could tell this was NOT the condition that Basavich had in the match I watched versus Gabe.

 

[LastTwo]

On the Subject of Fats....

I was curious about Wanderone's playing ability for the longest time. A while ago I met a man whom was quite famous in California decades ago for owning a couple poolrooms, one of which, ALL of the top players in the world would go. This man has seen it all, and he knew Fats very well, and by this, I mean he knew BOTH sides of the man. Fats was THE hustler, the ultimate hustler, and if you saw this man for months or years and thought he couldn't play, he put on a fantastic act. I asked this man, 'could Fats really play, or was he all hype?' ....he looked at me with wide eyes, as if he were about to uncover the location of some buried treasure and said, 'oh yeah, the man could play...and he had the dirtiest mouth you could ever imagine'.

People like Byrne and alot of other notable participants in pool's upbringing, who claimed Fats was just a 'B' player, or maybe a low 'A', were either fooled by perhaps one of the greatest acts ever put on by a man, or they HATED HIS GUTS, and smeared his reputation long after his death.

Please tell me, if you're a hustler like Fats, and you are going to play on TV against Mosconi, who was known as the greatest player to the public at the time, are you really going to beat him? Are you going to try? Or are you going to let the man clean your clock, as he is expected to? This was Fat's opportunity to advertise himself! He showed the world he was all talk, that he could barely play a lick, and they believed it! Imagine how much money that made Fats after that ordeal.

This man continues to hustle even after his death.

 

[tom haney]

Lucky Joey from Charleston told me he once watched
Fats & Ray Martin macth up in NYC in 1 hole.
Fats & his cronies woofed non-stop, Fats doubled
every time he lost, & Fats NEVER WON A SINGLE GAME.
Martin told him to come back any time. Joey said a lot
of guys lost to Fats cause they couldn't handle the
pressure.

I was curious about Wanderone's playing ability for the longest time. A while ago I met a man whom was quite famous in California decades ago for owning a couple poolrooms, one of which, ALL of the top players in the world would go. This man has seen it all, and he knew Fats very well, and by this, I mean he knew BOTH sides of the man. Fats was THE hustler, the ultimate hustler, and if you saw this man for months or years and thought he couldn't play, he put on a fantastic act. I asked this man, 'could Fats really play, or was he all hype?' ....he looked at me with wide eyes, as if he were about to uncover the location of some buried treasure and said, 'oh yeah, the man could play...and he had the dirtiest mouth you could ever imagine'.

People like Byrne and alot of other notable participants in pool's upbringing, who claimed Fats was just a 'B' player, or maybe a low 'A', were either fooled by perhaps one of the greatest acts ever put on by a man, or they HATED HIS GUTS, and smeared his reputation long after his death.

Please tell me, if you're a hustler like Fats, and you are going to play on TV against Mosconi, who was known as the greatest player to the public at the time, are you really going to beat him? Are you going to try? Or are you going to let the man clean your clock, as he is expected to? This was Fat's opportunity to advertise himself! He showed the world he was all talk, that he could barely play a lick, and they believed it! Imagine how much money that made Fats after that ordeal.

This man continues to hustle even after his death.

 

[OldHasBeen]

There was 2 different Fats.

I knew them BOTH pretty well.

There was the Fats - BEFORE the movie &
There was the Fats AFTER the movie.

Two different types of player’s altogether.

I saw Fats hustle and take off some huge scores right here in St. Louis and he was one of the smoothest & best hustlers I have ever seen. Once the bet got to where he wanted it to be, he could play as good as he had to, to "Take It Off". During this time (before the movie), Moscoooooooni wouldn't have had a chance playing Fats either One Pocket OR Banks.

After the movie, Fats got a good Manager and made more money by losing to celebrities & doing benefits than Moscoooooni ever thought of making. He was NOW an entertainer. He was getting on in years and naturally couldn't play as he used to, but he didn't have to.

TY & GL

 

[Bobby]

I was curious about Wanderone's playing ability for the longest time. A while ago I met a man whom was quite famous in California decades ago for owning a couple poolrooms, one of which, ALL of the top players in the world would go. This man has seen it all, and he knew Fats very well, and by this, I mean he knew BOTH sides of the man. Fats was THE hustler, the ultimate hustler, and if you saw this man for months or years and thought he couldn't play, he put on a fantastic act. I asked this man, 'could Fats really play, or was he all hype?' ....he looked at me with wide eyes, as if he were about to uncover the location of some buried treasure and said, 'oh yeah, the man could play...and he had the dirtiest mouth you could ever imagine'.

People like Byrne and alot of other notable participants in pool's upbringing, who claimed Fats was just a 'B' player, or maybe a low 'A', were either fooled by perhaps one of the greatest acts ever put on by a man, or they HATED HIS GUTS, and smeared his reputation long after his death.

Please tell me, if you're a hustler like Fats, and you are going to play on TV against Mosconi, who was known as the greatest player to the public at the time, are you really going to beat him? Are you going to try? Or are you going to let the man clean your clock, as he is expected to? This was Fat's opportunity to advertise himself! He showed the world he was all talk, that he could barely play a lick, and they believed it! Imagine how much money that made Fats after that ordeal.

This man continues to hustle even after his death.

The subject of how good Fats was comes up every now
and then and there are precious few who claim that
Fats could play well. I never saw Fats play but I ask
every old-time pro get a chance to talk to and they
all say he was not as good as the top players.
I've asked Johhny Ervolino, Cisero Murphy, and
few other lesser known players and none where
at all impressed with Fats playing, they did
however say he was very good at matching up, but
could never hang with the top guys playing even.

Without titles, it doesn't matter how he played.
It's funny, pool is the only game where you can
even have people debate over how great a player
was when the player never won anything or even
really played much in tournaments. Can you imagine
having a discussion with a group of people about
the greatest basketball players and the usual
names would be mentioned and then someone says
that there was this guy who used to play down at
the local courts who was the best ever! He was
better than Jordan and would have broken every
record in book if he had played pro. You'd be
laughed at and your story utterly disregarded.
The same would be true for baseball, tennis,
golf, even other cuesports such as snooker and
billiards. Whenever I hear how good a hustler
was or road player I just dismiss it out of hand.