Basics of schrimsaw

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How is schrimsaw done? I have seen the pictures of Bandido's cues, but I have never seen a schirmsawed cue in person. Is it a carving? Does it have depth (physical, not visual)? If so, are the voids filled with epoxy or something else to make the whole surface of the cue level? How are the colors added? What limits to complexity are there?

I'm just after a simple description, but feel free to go into more detail if you like.
 
True scrimshaw is just scratching. Some of Bandido's work would be more in the carving category. You can fill it in with epoxy, but on elephant tusk scrimshaw for example, they usually just rub india ink into the scratches and wipe off the excess. The sky is the limit on colors.
Chris
www.internationalcuemakers.com
www.cuesmith.com
 
There are two methods of doing scrim, the first is the line method where the illustration is made up of longitudinal or diagonal scratches or micro grooves. It can be uni or bi-directional. The intensity of a design element is controlled by the length of the lines and of how close they are to each other. This metod was used in the PFD "Hustler" cue.

The other method is the "stipple" method and it is what I use. It is more of a series of dots or short gouges. If you magnify a magazine photo it will reveal the dots that make up the photo. Size and density of the dots are controlled in this style. This method yields more life-like illustrations.

The tough part about scrim, if you're an accomplished artist, is the absence of the ability to make erasures. Once you commit an element, there's no going back.
 
Color schrimsaw is complicated as aside from keeping the colors from "bleeding over", intensity of a color or the section does not solely depend on size and density of the lines or dots but also on how the color is blended and faded, unless you want your art to look like it's coming out of a comic book. Depending on the direction/source of illumination, the reds can vary from dark maroon to pink to eventually fade to white at the most illuminated part. Can you just imagine now how difficult it is to do this blend and fade and keep it from being bled over by the adjacent color.

The next higher level of this artform is carve and schrim where the topography of the composition is tackled initially.
During the carving process is when you have to decide on the depth of the cuts to portray the desired 3d effect. The schrim is added to enhance the detail and not necessarily be the major controlling element of the composition. Final outcome is normally a 65/35. Meaning, the carving defines 65% of the composition while the schrim's is 35%.

I really don't know how other artists do it because my schrim, carve and most specially the carve/schrim combination is home-grown or self developed.
 
Thanks Chris and Edwin. What are the tools you typically use Edwin? Are they picks and similar hand tools or rotary style motorized tools (dremels)? Would it be possible to use a very acute V cutter or engraver and then use a cnc to make the indentations? How long does it take to complete a typical inlay? Can the background material be wood, or does it have to be something much less pourous like ivory?

Thanks, Nick
 
I know you placed the above questions to Edwin and I will let him handle your questions about tools and such. But I can answer the CNC questions as to what I have seen done. A friend of mine made a spring loaded hardened sharp point tool to mount in place of his motorized tool on his CNC. That way instead of cutting with a routing bit, he just allows it to scratch his scrimshaw into the ivory. The Z axis just stays in place putting just a little pressure on the spring loaded scribing bit, and he switched the Y axis to the rotary table to rotate the cue for the lines to go around the cue. This allows him to draw dragons and snakes and vines and what ever wrapping around the cue in very fine scratched in scrimshaw. It also allows him to sign his name as fine as I have ever seen it done. As far as doing it manually Edwin is definitely the man to ask those questions to.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
 
iusedtoberich said:
Thanks Chris and Edwin. What are the tools you typically use Edwin? Are they picks and similar hand tools or rotary style motorized tools (dremels)? Would it be possible to use a very acute V cutter or engraver and then use a cnc to make the indentations? How long does it take to complete a typical inlay? Can the background material be wood, or does it have to be something much less pourous like ivory?

Thanks, Nick
Hi Nick. With regards to tools, it's all of the above. It all just depends on how you want to translate a composition. Of how you want the viewer to appreciate it. You can do this by playing with the colors , texture and contrast.

I may have a way to do a modification or add an accessory to a 4 axis CNC but am dragging my feet because the allure and uniqueness of carving and schrimsaw is its being hand-made.
 
cueman said:
I know you placed the above questions to Edwin and I will let him handle your questions about tools and such. But I can answer the CNC questions as to what I have seen done. A friend of mine made a spring loaded hardened sharp point tool to mount in place of his motorized tool on his CNC. That way instead of cutting with a routing bit, he just allows it to scratch his scrimshaw into the ivory. The Z axis just stays in place putting just a little pressure on the spring loaded scribing bit, and he switched the Y axis to the rotary table to rotate the cue for the lines to go around the cue. This allows him to draw dragons and snakes and vines and what ever wrapping around the cue in very fine scratched in scrimshaw. It also allows him to sign his name as fine as I have ever seen it done. As far as doing it manually Edwin is definitely the man to ask those questions to.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com

Scrimshaw done in that manner makes it all but worthless. Scrimshaw is an art, doing it with a cnc just make it just production crap and of no real value in my opinion. Sort of like buying a print of a real work of art. One is worth thousands and the other is ten bucks. Can you imagin someone trying to sell a print pretending it is a real painting.
 
My sentiments exactly Macguy!! The allure, as Edwin states, is in the fact that it is hand made. In another thread, Blud, made mention that a CNC cue can be turned out the same forever. That to me is similiar to license plates being stamped out monotously one by one by prison inmates. Kerplunk, kerplunk, kerplunk.
 
Gerald said:
My sentiments exactly Macguy!! The allure, as Edwin states, is in the fact that it is hand made. In another thread, Blud, made mention that a CNC cue can be turned out the same forever. That to me is similiar to license plates being stamped out monotously one by one by prison inmates. Kerplunk, kerplunk, kerplunk.

I believe your right the artistic value to me would be much less or nill when a cnc is used to do the inlays and such. I am considering making some cues but more for money than any other reason. Shouldn't I strive to make excellent playing cues with no adornment instead of messing with points at all. It seems like my profit would be higher per hour per cue. Instead of saving the best shafts for the highest dollar cues providing them with the unadorned cues. I guess it really doesn't matter one way or the other. I'll never put in the time to a renowned cue maker like many of you guys are so why fake it. I've been machining stair parts for the largest companys in the u.s. and have the ability to attain large amounts of the highest qualitynorthern michigan hard maple lumber for shaft and butt material. I will be offering the highest quality material to builders without the gamble associated with some current suppliers. If you have a good supply now, keep it, if not I can provide.
 
Hi JLR,
I'm interested but prefer dimension lumber (8/4) as I like the freedom of choosing and cutting it the way I want to. My requirement for the DL is pretty simple and just gets complicated as the stock gets close to final dimension. Please PM me your BF pricing at 2 cu.mtr. shipment at a time. Thanks
 
macguy said:
Scrimshaw done in that manner makes it all but worthless. Scrimshaw is an art, doing it with a cnc just make it just production crap and of no real value in my opinion. Sort of like buying a print of a real work of art. One is worth thousands and the other is ten bucks. Can you imagin someone trying to sell a print pretending it is a real painting.
I used to feel the same way as you do. But to be honest with you CNC inlays have become so prevelant that most buyers no longer care. I am now building my first in house CNC inlaid cue. By the way the guy who CNC scrimshaws average cue runs several thousand dollars and he has a few year wait on getting a cue from him. The consumer brought this upon us. People have started wanting perfection more than hand inlaid.
Chris
 
cueman said:
I used to feel the same way as you do. But to be honest with you CNC inlays have become so prevelant that most buyers no longer care. The consumer brought this upon us. People have started wanting perfection more than hand inlaid.
Chris
I'm satisfied to be in service to the minority who appreciates what I enjoy doing. You speak the truth there about consumers wanting perfection to a level that can only be achieved by a machine. Unfortunately, the hollering from the sector that provided these was the loudest when the sticker cues came out.

I have nothing against the use of advanced technology but I'd rather use the precision in the structural half of the cue. The other half, which is aesthetics, blesses me with the freedom that I desire.
 
cueman said:
I used to feel the same way as you do. But to be honest with you CNC inlays have become so prevelant that most buyers no longer care. I am now building my first in house CNC inlaid cue. By the way the guy who CNC scrimshaws average cue runs several thousand dollars and he has a few year wait on getting a cue from him. The consumer brought this upon us. People have started wanting perfection more than hand inlaid.
Chris

Are you kidding? That is like I said before, like thinking a print is worth as much as an original painting. When it comes to art there is nothing perfect. Why not just use a decal and really screw the customer. am refering to scrimshaw by the way, not inlay.
 
Here's something that can help you too http://www.scrimshander.com/ . This is applicable in consideration of the dimensions of our canvas. Scrimshaw art performed on cue parts (joint, handle, sleeve and butt plate) and inlays are considered Micro-scrimshanding. In the news section, http://www.scrimshander.com/News3.htm, he mentions elephant ivory as difficult to work with because of it being a hard material that requires double cutting.

Also with regards to using CNC to scrim, I'm wondering if there is an affordable machine that can equal the resolution of a hand-made micro-scrim.
Enjoy the site folks.
 
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JLR said:
Shouldn't I strive to make excellent playing cues with no adornment instead of messing with points at all. It seems like my profit would be higher per hour per cue. Instead of saving the best shafts for the highest dollar cues providing them with the unadorned cues. I guess it really doesn't matter one way or the other. I'll never put in the time to a renowned cue maker like many of you guys are so why fake it.
A pool cue came into being with the primary purpose which is function. So all cuecraftsmen are expected to be able to come, at least, at par with the functional level that cues have reached at present. It is the entry point as indicated in the Blue Book of Pool Cues as Level 1. Ideally, every cuecratsman is expected to satisfy this level before being able to proceed to the next. I guess this is why the ACA required that such level 1 cue be submitted as part of the application for membership as this at least guarantees the consumers that they're getting a product that satisfies the primary requirement of a cue.

It's ok to stay in this level but sooner or later a reason to produce higher level cues will come along and most specially if you're in it for the money. Competition will come when you hit a bigger market, additional capital outlay for materials and equipment to keep up with demand and just increasing need of a growing family can push you to find ways to stay competitive if not just stay afloat.

My reward is my finished product, the mental satisfaction gained along the way and the friendships developed. Those are the main reasons for what you see in "Bandido's Cues" everything else just follows.
 
bandido said:
A pool cue came into being with the primary purpose which is function. So all cuecraftsmen are expected to be able to come, at least, at par with the functional level that cues have reached at present. It is the entry point as indicated in the Blue Book of Pool Cues as Level 1. Ideally, every cuecratsman is expected to satisfy this level before being able to proceed to the next. I guess this is why the ACA required that such level 1 cue be submitted as part of the application for membership as this at least guarantees the consumers that they're getting a product that satisfies the primary requirement of a cue.

It's ok to stay in this level but sooner or later a reason to produce higher level cues will come along and most specially if you're in it for the money. Competition will come when you hit a bigger market, additional capital outlay for materials and equipment to keep up with demand and just increasing need of a growing family can push you to find ways to stay competitive if not just stay afloat.

My reward is my finished product, the mental satisfaction gained along the way and the friendships developed. Those are the main reasons for what you see in "Bandido's Cues" everything else just follows.

Very informative. Thank you. I need to get to the point of turning some shafts and such with the material I intend on selling for cues before I can offer stock for sale. I agree, dimension lumber will be the best way to provide material and I will offer it that way. I'll keep in touch on this forum.
 
machine

Also with regards to using CNC to scrim, I'm wondering if there is an affordable machine that can equal the resolution of a hand-made micro-scrim.
Enjoy the site folks.[/QUOTE]

The machine I got from blud can do simultaneous 4 axis intoprelation, Is capable of doing carving, engraving and pocketing. You can scan a picture and engrave it on the cue.
I am sure you could use a scribe to create the small grooves like in scrim. I will try it this winter when I have some time. I am still learning all of the features of this machine, It is more complex than the one I learned on, But it has much more capabilities the the older machine. Chris.
 
macguy said:
Are you kidding? That is like I said before, like thinking a print is worth as much as an original painting. When it comes to art there is nothing perfect. Why not just use a decal and really screw the customer. am refering to scrimshaw by the way, not inlay.

I have to agree with Mac.. scrimmed CNC is not art and respectfully disagree with Chris. The consumer did not bring it upon us, cheaper equipment did. Luckily for me A, there are still alot of people who like traditional cues and b, actually know what it takes to do a rounded inlay vs a sharp inlay and are willing to pay for it. Now I realize there are exceptions to the rule and there are some CNC cues that cannot or wouldn't look good, or be feasible to sharpen every corner on.

Joe
 
What value does a scrimmed cue have if; the maker used a CNC or maybe a laser equipment to do it ; if he died, his former assistant easily pulls the g-codes he used to make the scrim, let the cnc machine do the same exact thing?
 
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