watchez said:
Posted as Dingle..
First of all, I wasn't attacking you, but it sounds like you're a little defensive about the getting high comment. Enjoy your $19.00 a night at the Stardust, I can afford to stay at the Riv and I prefer to. I don't eat at buffets because they always suck. I've always won more gambling at the Riv, but whatever.
Anyone who stayed at the Stardust last year will remember the world war II veterans convention or whatever. Talk about an old crowd, which also included the cocktail waitresses (I guess they hired the Rivs waitresses last week)
Anyway, I wasn't trying to make this personal, but if you want to get personal then maybe we should settle it on the pool table. ..any time.
-Shinyballs
Last edited:
Nostroke said:
Bad point....if the Riviera is making so much money off of pool league players then they should do a better job. If I was Mark Griffin, I would walk up & down the strip to find a more accommidating hotel with a higher level of services, employees, and FOOD. I am sure the Riviera isn't the only hotel in Vegas with a convention center attached.
And I am not sure what you mean by 'host' ?? Does the BCA pay the Riviera to have a place to setup the pool tables or is this given for free? You make it sound as if that the Riviera pays the BCA to have the tournament there. If that is so, then the BCA is getting a great deal & I see why they don't take the show to a different hotel.
And again, Mr. Tinyballs, you have no idea who I am. If you want to settle something on a pool table, let me educate you. How would you know that you are playing a pitiful 'D' player like myself or say the best player from my area? Do you have my picture on file somewhere?
I haven't read a thing but I support watchez. 
And, if the BCA is for it, I'm against it.
watchez said:
What difference would it make?
Teacherman said:
Teacherman,
Just curious, but what do you have against the BCA? ..and who is better?
And if you don't like the BCA, why are you replying to this thread? Oh, I forgot, you didn't read it.
Aside from all the hotel stuff the tournament is a must go to event for amateurs. If you have not been to one of these tournaments the first thing that shocks most people I have talked with is how many really good shooters are out there. The first one I went to years ago I remember before we left Anchorage, Mark Griffin was coaching the top gun in the state at the time on how he should match up when he got there, and then Mark turned his head, looked at me and said “ …and you’re not supposed to match up with ANYBODY” And he was pretty much right. Lots of talent shows up and it’s fun to be involved. It has always been an outstanding event in the past and I’m sure Mark G. and the BCA League staff will not only continue the great tradition but make it better and better.
I'll reply for Teacherman on this one.......BUT LET ME STATE I AM OPEN MINDED ABOUT MARK GRIFFIN & THE COURSE HE IS TAKING THE BCA. However in years past the BCA has been nothing less than grey on all issues.shinyballs said:Teacherman,
Just curious, but what do you have against the BCA? ..and who is better?
And if you don't like the BCA, why are you replying to this thread? Oh, I forgot, you didn't read it.
#!. It used to be called the North American 8 Ball championships with one of their rule requirements of having a valid USA or Canadian drivers license or ID to verify who you were. When the Spaniards beat a team from here, St. Louis, I think 5 years ago I sent the BCA and John Lewis an email asking how these European teams were legal. His reply was that they have played in years past. When I said, that might be so but they still dont fit your rule requirements, he never responded again. From what I know, these Spanish & Portuguese teams are anything but amateur. They are paid by their country to play, have a coach, etc. Besides the fact that they also cheat during matches by coaching in their native tongue.
#2. BCA has a list on their website stating who all the master players are. We submit a team with a player not on this list to play in the open. Then the BCA comes back & says that this player is a master player. This player they changed status on is a 'known player' and had played in the BCA for 2 years prior. Last year, another area player Justin Bergman was listed on an open team, not on the Master's player list but then after his team submitted their entry fee was told he was a master player because he had won the Jr. National Championships. Why have a list if it doesn't mean anything? I see that this year they have come up with the 'Grand Master' rating. Who did this rating & why? Not to pick on a particular person, but Mike Bandy, John Abruzzo and his team have won how many times and aren't Grand Masters? What does it take? I also notice none of the Spanish or Portuguese players are Grand Masters but I am sure a few have one singles titles.
#3. The referees, I understand have a hard job, but are just plain terrible. I have never heard anyone have any satisfaction with them. You can't take someone, put them in a class for how many ever day (s) & then have them be one of the twenty officials. I watched a match once where this Lady tried to call a foul on her opponent for supposedly forcing/pushing her cue stick on the cue ball. This girl she was accusing was an accomplished player & not doing so. They had this big argument, called over the head referee and had a 15 minute private discussion. The next day, I saw the accuser wearing a referee jersey. ???? Did they now think she was qualified?
I wish Mark Griffin luck and he seems like a standup guy. Time will tell if he makes positive changes.
watchez said:
I agree that the Spanish teams are good, but my team has both won and lost to them. Last year we beat a good spanish team and it wasn't even in the money. The year before, we lost to a spanish team pretty bad, but not nearly as bad as the thumping we got from an Arizona team. I'd say 4 or 5 of their players should have masters (they had 8 on their team).
I think overall the BCA does ok by moving the top finishers up to the next division, I mean what else can you do without handicaps (I hate handicaps).
Didn't it used to be that to have a masters team you had to have at least 3 masters? I thought you could have an open team with 1 or 2 masters, but maybe I'm wrong.
I've had a referee out there call a bad hit in my favor. I didn't complain. Yes, they could be better, but it doesn't seem like a lot of people are volunteering to be referees and some of the referees aren't even good players. Then again, good player doesn't equal good referee. I think this problem exists in pretty much all sports.
I hope so too, but what are the alternatives, APA or VNEA? No. ACS, maybe, but the participation isn't quite there yet and I think people are hesitant to switch because the BCA has done a pretty good job. Just my opinion.
shinyballs said:
Point #1: Since when is Spain in North America.
Point #2: I guarantee your team did not beat the stacked spanish team
Point #3: Getting moved up because you finished top 16 ONE time is ridiculous. After a second time, fine. Not after one good finish.
Point #4: You had a referee make a bad call in your favor and you didn't complain? Let me tell you what Teachers players do........If we make a bad hit and the referee calls it good we give up ball and hand to the opponent. Has happened on more than one occasion. We do it right in front of the referee. He needs to know how bad the call was. Ever hear of honesty?????? How about Integrity?????
The referees are the worst. I and 10 of my customers could referee the entire tournament and not make a mistake. Video the hit. Call the hit. If you don't know, check the video. Takes 30 seconds.
Teacherman said:
Since when are Efren, Fiejen, etc. from the US? They play in the Pro Nationals. What about Canada? It isn't called the "North American" championships, it's the BCA "National" championships, I checked on this. I don't think it needs to be limited, but yes they should maybe scrutinize the teams a little better. And, yes the Spanish team are poor sportsmen and really smell bad, that's their nature (I lived in Spain for 3 years). If you limit Spain, then make it fair and limit other countries, eh.
No, we did lose to the stacked spanish team, but as I said, not as badly as we have to other US teams. I don't think they are better than many of the US teams and yes, they should probably be moved to masters as well.
Top 16, I don't know. We've lost to top 25 teams and pretty much every player was running out every time at the table. One or two of our players might run out in a round.
I didn't complain at what I thought was probably a bad hit because it was close and I wasn't judging the shot, I was shooting it. It wasn't clear enough to me, I just suspected it was bad. It was a down table shot.
I am honest and have integrity. I don't think anyone that really knows me would question that.
Oh Canada
2004 Masters Team
1st Place - The Green Machine - Calgary, AB Canada
4th Place - Interclubs - Barcelona, Spain (This is the stacked team)
7th-8th - App1 - Portugal
2004 Masters Team Women
1st Place - Back for More - Calgary, AB Canada
2003 Open Team
1st Place - Woody's Wizards - BC Canada
2003 Womens Masters Team
4th Back For More AB Canada $ 2,500
5th-6th Ballroom S8NT'S BC Canada $ 1,750
2004 Masters Team
1st Place - The Green Machine - Calgary, AB Canada
4th Place - Interclubs - Barcelona, Spain (This is the stacked team)
7th-8th - App1 - Portugal
2004 Masters Team Women
1st Place - Back for More - Calgary, AB Canada
2003 Open Team
1st Place - Woody's Wizards - BC Canada
2003 Womens Masters Team
4th Back For More AB Canada $ 2,500
5th-6th Ballroom S8NT'S BC Canada $ 1,750
shinyballs said:
It USED TO BE called the BCA North American championships and the rule requirement was to have a valid USA or Canadian ID or drivers license. It has since been changed. I was talking about the BCA and its' grey past. I truly believe that my email to John Lewis made him change the requirements. I fully understand that, like in tennis, just because something is say called the US Open, anyone from any country can play unless the rules (as was the case with the BCA) state otherwise.
And the team I was referring to already had a master player on it so when they upped the grade of our player at the last moment after plans of hotel/airfare/entry fees were made what was our team to do?? Forfeit time & money or play in the masters division. Nice option they leave for you.
The BCA makes a ton of money, I won't be lead to believe otherwise. They can afford to pay qualified referees to be apart of their largest tournament of the year. The head refs are no better than the lower levels.
Why also is it that they have this bracket of teams all laid out and when they get so far into the tournament they reshuffle the bracket?? What other sport or event have you ever seen that?
I am done giving all this advice out for free. Mark Griffin, contact me, put me on payroll and I will help you make the BCA better.
I have read your posts with interest. The Riviera offers what no other Vegas venue will offer. Reasonable room rates over two weekends with adequate convention space. Please name another facility and I will go talk to them.
The Riviera is not as bad as you make it up to be. I agree their food is pretty tough - especially Katy's.
But it is proper to support the Riviera -they contribute a lot to making the event happen. They do not add money but they have a lot of expenses in making it happen. I am sure they make a ton off of the event but they are in the busines of making money.
The BCA does not make a ton of money as you suggest. And I am trying to put everything I can back into added prize money and more events. In our first year, we will have added over $100,000 to amatuer events. Shooting for close to $200,000 next year.
The reason for the "grandmaster" division was to give the average master a chance to win. Just like in the open division, the top 5% or so go up a division. 64 players went to master every year but the number of masters did not increase - even decreasing secveral years. So we are trying to peal off the top 5% of the masters and create a new division - which will let the "pro" players that aren't good enough to be top players a place to play. The masters currently has too broad a range of ability.
The flow charts need to be as they are. A true DE chart would be way too hard to physically follow. This is the way Gary Benson has done it for years and probably the way it will be done in the future. It is just too hard to post a 2048 flow chart.
In ending, please call me if you would like to discuss the ideas we are trying to implement. I am here for the players. I will accept all constructive criticism - and will listen to bitching too. But I might not be able to solve everyone's problems.
You told me to contact you and you would help solve the problems. Here is your chance. At least make sure you look me up in Vegas (if you are going to be there).
Mark Griffin
702-719-7665
The Riviera is not as bad as you make it up to be. I agree their food is pretty tough - especially Katy's.
But it is proper to support the Riviera -they contribute a lot to making the event happen. They do not add money but they have a lot of expenses in making it happen. I am sure they make a ton off of the event but they are in the busines of making money.
The BCA does not make a ton of money as you suggest. And I am trying to put everything I can back into added prize money and more events. In our first year, we will have added over $100,000 to amatuer events. Shooting for close to $200,000 next year.
The reason for the "grandmaster" division was to give the average master a chance to win. Just like in the open division, the top 5% or so go up a division. 64 players went to master every year but the number of masters did not increase - even decreasing secveral years. So we are trying to peal off the top 5% of the masters and create a new division - which will let the "pro" players that aren't good enough to be top players a place to play. The masters currently has too broad a range of ability.
The flow charts need to be as they are. A true DE chart would be way too hard to physically follow. This is the way Gary Benson has done it for years and probably the way it will be done in the future. It is just too hard to post a 2048 flow chart.
In ending, please call me if you would like to discuss the ideas we are trying to implement. I am here for the players. I will accept all constructive criticism - and will listen to bitching too. But I might not be able to solve everyone's problems.
You told me to contact you and you would help solve the problems. Here is your chance. At least make sure you look me up in Vegas (if you are going to be there).
Mark Griffin
702-719-7665
Mark Griffin said:
But why the shuffle?
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I will look into other space for the BCA championships on the Vegas strip & let you know what I come up with.Mark Griffin said:
But, Mark Griffin, just like you state that the Riviera is in business to make money, you yourself should not be embarrassed that the BCA is making money. I hope I am correct in assuming that when you mention 2048 when discussing the bracket question, you are talking about 2048 teams in the open division alone. Tell me if I am wrong in breaking this down: It costs $300 per league to join the BCA, most leagues probably send 5 teams so that is $60 per team. 2048 x $60 = $122,880. Then how many games are played on those 200 bar tables for 10 days? I couldn't even fathom to calculate that. So don't be embarrassed, make money...lots of it...just be sure to run a clean, "grey free" (as previously discussed), operation when you do.
But getting back to the scramble of teams, I don't see why there is a need. If you have another bracket set up when you get down to 'X' amount of teams then just transpose each team into that new bracket. They should all line up, without a scramble.
Sorry, but I don't see your grand master division working. If these grandmasters have to come from an area where they played on league together, I don't see their is enough interest to have a new division. Or can they play on a team together if they weren't in the same league? I think you should have made a division in between Open and Masters, not above it.
I also can't help but bring up that you didn't mention at all the referee situation.
I also should say that I have been going to the BCA for about 7 or 8 years and always have a great time. Thanks to the BCA for providing me with this entertainment once a year. I am glad that you agreed that the food at the Riviera is as bad as I say. And yes, I will surely, come up and introduce myself during the tournament as I will be there. If you have time, I'll take you across the street to the Stardust and buy you a good meal.
Thanks,
Steve aka watchez
I'm not up on all of the leagues, but I have been reading the forums in an effort to gain an understanding of what makes them tick. I mean, after all, the LEAGUES is where the bulk of the pool-playing public exists.
I cannot imagine the resources involved in setting up a venue site such as this upcoming one in Vegas. I do know that moving 200 tables to Vegas and setting them up ain't an easy task, and rightfully so, there is an expense involved. This is definitely a HUGE undertaking. At the recent Super Billiards Expo, somebody mentioned there were 176 seven-footers assembled, and I did not hear one complaint from the players in my company. Everybody was pleased with the playing field.
And then there's the staff needed to keep things running smoothly in Vegas. The crowd control must be a difficult one to keep in check. Most of these types of events have dedicated staff people who work round the clock, and they receive some compensation for their efforts. However, most of these staff people come to these events because of their love for the game, not for any income potential. They're passionate about pool and want to be a part of a magnificant event, such as this one.
As far as the referee problem, this is an area which could use some tweaking in ALL venues. Recently, I witnessed a player call over a referee to watch his opponent make a shot. In this instance, the referee happened to be the tournament director, and it was the finals match.
The shot was definitely a questionable one, which needed a neutral party to make a ruling. After the opponent made an obvious and blatant bad hit before a packed house of spectators and railbirds, the player waited for the referee to speak. The referee didn't utter a word. So, finally, the player says, "Well, Ref, what's your call?" The referee says "good hit" and immediately leaves the playing area. Every single person on the rail knew it was a BAD HIT. It was a bad call. It did not affect the outcome of the match, but something like is hard for some players to let go of, when there has been an injustice committed such as that.
I realize there are limitations when it comes to finding competent and qualified referees who KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between a good hit and a bad hit. Hopefully, the administrative bodies will endeavor to address this dilemma because it is a very real problem.
Personally, I've been requested to make a ruling on a hit and have declined because, quite frankly, I do not know in some instances whether it is a good or bad hit. Most players recognize the way the cue-ball travels after the hit, but not me.
MANY pro players are finally speaking up about the current racking problems. When incoming breakers rack their own, there are quite a few of them who have the reputation for being the BEST in the business when it comes to rigging a rack. Most of the pro players I have spoken to agree that, at least in the semi-finals and finals of events, a neutral racker should be in place, to avoid the bickering and rack-rigging. This would ensure a level playing field.
There are some pro players who advance the charts quite easily when they're racking their own, running 6-packs and the like. Ask a few pros who the rack-riggers are, and you may be surprised to find out who they are. I personally have witnessed several matches in which the incoming breaker racks his own and the wing ball flies in the same packet EVERY SINGLE TIME, resulting in MANY consecutive wins. This ensures this player will continue his run at the table, leaving the other guy benched. Not much you can do when you're racing to 9 and the incoming breaker runs an 8-pack on you. Is it skill in his shooting capabilities or is it his racking technique? Should an expert racker advance in the charts because he knows how to rig a rack?
If you can believe it, a tournament director once told me that if a player cannot recognize a bad rack, then it is his fault and he deserves to lose. I believe the opposite, that there should be a level of integrity. Rack-riggers are no different than poker cheaters playing with a marked deck (IMO).
I can't imagine how much money it takes to put on something as BIG as the Vegas event, but my hat is off to each and every person who contribute their time and effort into making this happen. I look forward to reading all about it!
JMHO, FWIW!
JAM
I cannot imagine the resources involved in setting up a venue site such as this upcoming one in Vegas. I do know that moving 200 tables to Vegas and setting them up ain't an easy task, and rightfully so, there is an expense involved. This is definitely a HUGE undertaking. At the recent Super Billiards Expo, somebody mentioned there were 176 seven-footers assembled, and I did not hear one complaint from the players in my company. Everybody was pleased with the playing field.
And then there's the staff needed to keep things running smoothly in Vegas. The crowd control must be a difficult one to keep in check. Most of these types of events have dedicated staff people who work round the clock, and they receive some compensation for their efforts. However, most of these staff people come to these events because of their love for the game, not for any income potential. They're passionate about pool and want to be a part of a magnificant event, such as this one.
As far as the referee problem, this is an area which could use some tweaking in ALL venues. Recently, I witnessed a player call over a referee to watch his opponent make a shot. In this instance, the referee happened to be the tournament director, and it was the finals match.
The shot was definitely a questionable one, which needed a neutral party to make a ruling. After the opponent made an obvious and blatant bad hit before a packed house of spectators and railbirds, the player waited for the referee to speak. The referee didn't utter a word. So, finally, the player says, "Well, Ref, what's your call?" The referee says "good hit" and immediately leaves the playing area. Every single person on the rail knew it was a BAD HIT. It was a bad call. It did not affect the outcome of the match, but something like is hard for some players to let go of, when there has been an injustice committed such as that.
I realize there are limitations when it comes to finding competent and qualified referees who KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between a good hit and a bad hit. Hopefully, the administrative bodies will endeavor to address this dilemma because it is a very real problem.
Personally, I've been requested to make a ruling on a hit and have declined because, quite frankly, I do not know in some instances whether it is a good or bad hit. Most players recognize the way the cue-ball travels after the hit, but not me.
MANY pro players are finally speaking up about the current racking problems. When incoming breakers rack their own, there are quite a few of them who have the reputation for being the BEST in the business when it comes to rigging a rack. Most of the pro players I have spoken to agree that, at least in the semi-finals and finals of events, a neutral racker should be in place, to avoid the bickering and rack-rigging. This would ensure a level playing field.
There are some pro players who advance the charts quite easily when they're racking their own, running 6-packs and the like. Ask a few pros who the rack-riggers are, and you may be surprised to find out who they are. I personally have witnessed several matches in which the incoming breaker racks his own and the wing ball flies in the same packet EVERY SINGLE TIME, resulting in MANY consecutive wins. This ensures this player will continue his run at the table, leaving the other guy benched. Not much you can do when you're racing to 9 and the incoming breaker runs an 8-pack on you. Is it skill in his shooting capabilities or is it his racking technique? Should an expert racker advance in the charts because he knows how to rig a rack?
If you can believe it, a tournament director once told me that if a player cannot recognize a bad rack, then it is his fault and he deserves to lose. I believe the opposite, that there should be a level of integrity. Rack-riggers are no different than poker cheaters playing with a marked deck (IMO).
I can't imagine how much money it takes to put on something as BIG as the Vegas event, but my hat is off to each and every person who contribute their time and effort into making this happen. I look forward to reading all about it!
JMHO, FWIW!
JAM
I've just started a referee business. Me and 10 associates are for hire. We're not cheap. But we don't make mistakes.
Send me a PM if interested.
Send me a PM if interested.