BCA Nationals 8 Ball - Fargo Discrepancy

banditgrrr

banditgrrr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So I'm watching the finals of the 8 ball gold division. Joe Pierce II vs Russel Cearley. Just out of curiosity, I pull up their Fargo ratings. A bit surprising that Joe Pierce II is a 651. Granted, he only has a robustness of 104 but he also has a starter rating of 625. From my understanding, wasn't the cutoff for the gold division at 624? If so, how could a 651 be entered? Especially if he has a starter rating of 625.
 
On the Play BCA website for the tournament entrees he was only rated a 603. Not sure how that could be. I thought maybe they were updating his Fargo Rate as he played but I've been playing here all week and my rating hasn't changed a point.
 
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I was checking that too. Mine hasn't changed all week either but at the start of the finals he was definitely a 651 with 104 robustness and a 625 starter rating which would have placed him in the platinum division.
 
Provisional v Actual

banditgrrr said:
I was checking that too. Mine hasn't changed all week either but at the start of the finals he was definitely a 651 with 104 robustness and a 625 starter rating which would have placed him in the platinum division.
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I believe CSI and FargoRate should consider changing how it computes a provisional rating. Currently it takes the weighted average between actual results and assumed results and for unknown players with minimal actuals (robustness) the guess (starter rating) far outweighs the actuals. I believe these weights should be reversed when the actuals are higher than the starter rating but should remain as is when actuals are lower than the starter placement rating.
 
Friend on FB told me he played the winner of the gold and the guy said he played real bad in a recent tourney and his Fargo rate dropped 50 putting him in the gold

Hmm I thought I heard someone suggest that exact thing could happen :eek:

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one stroke said:
Friend on FB told me he played the winner of the gold and the guy said he played real bad in a recent tourney and his Fargo rate dropped 50 putting him in the gold

Hmm I thought I heard someone suggest that exact thing could happen :eek:

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Russ Cearley, the winner of the gold didn't play poorly in any one tournament causing a 50 point drop. He works full time and had not devoted much time to pool the last couple of years resulting in him playing erratically and below his potential in that time stretch. The same time stretch when most of the Fargo rating data has been compiled. At 617 Russ was undervalued substantially due to this. Not his fault nor the result of sandbagging. Just life's ups and downs for the working pool player. I thought there might be thoughts along these lines after he got 3rd in the platinum 9 ball if he went deep in the gold 8 ball but he didn't design the tournament. And he's a fierce competitor with no thoughts of receiving a spot or an advantage that I've ever witnessed. IMO Fargo will always have players undervalued at certain points in time which is going to be it's major criticism moving forward. Time will tell.

If you look at Russell's match history on CSI at events prior to the Fargo compilation you can see clearly he has a gear well above 617. He has some nice wins over tough competition. And plenty of losses to dogs.



JC
 
one stroke said:
Friend on FB told me he played the winner of the gold and the guy said he played real bad in a recent tourney and his Fargo rate dropped 50 putting him in the gold



Hmm I thought I heard someone suggest that exact thing could happen :eek:



1
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I would advise you to read those posts again. You did not understand it the first time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I watched the stream when Manny Perez beat Mike Dechaine to win the 10-ball challenge. Perez doesn't have any games in FargoRate so was given the default 625. Mike is close to 800, so of course the percentages were 99-1 for much of the match. Jay was commentating and criticizing it saying he didn't believe in FargoRatings, which is understandable in that situation, but they shouldn't have used the ratings when Perez didn't really have one. Just an example of where the starter ratings caused confusion.

edit: Oh and at one point George the other commentator looked up Manny's rating to see if it was a starter rating, and came back on the stream and said he had 625 games in the system! :rolleyes:
 
Ratings

BRussell said:
I watched the stream when Manny Perez beat Mike Dechaine to win the 10-ball challenge. Perez doesn't have any games in FargoRate so was given the default 625. Mike is close to 800, so of course the percentages were 99-1 for much of the match. Jay was commentating and criticizing it saying he didn't believe in FargoRatings, which is understandable in that situation, but they shouldn't have used the ratings when Perez didn't really have one. Just an example of where the starter ratings caused confusion.

edit: Oh and at one point George the other commentator looked up Manny's rating to see if it was a starter rating, and came back on the stream and said he had 625 games in the system! :rolleyes:
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And Jay is Correct.
 
one stroke said:
Friend on FB told me he played the winner of the gold and the guy said he played real bad in a recent tourney and his Fargo rate dropped 50 putting him in the gold

Hmm I thought I heard someone suggest that exact thing could happen :eek:

1
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Here is the scoop.

Russell's rating (including where it is now after BCAPL, which you don't see yet) has varied over the last year and a half 16 points in both directions from 633--a total of 32 point range. The drop that sent him down to 617 was after four tournaments (13 matches at Western BCA and Chinook Winds). So basically he was either going to be high in gold or low in platinum.

Bottom line is for him to do what he did last week required he pull things together and keep things together, what we all hope to achieve at tournaments like this. Let's just congratulate him!
 
watchez said:
On the Play BCA website for the tournament entrees he was only rated a 603. Not sure how that could be. I thought maybe they were updating his Fargo Rate as he played but I've been playing here all week and my rating hasn't changed a point.
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It is not realistic that someone could rise 50 points in that timeframe. The fact he was assigned a 625 starter rating indicates the 603 and Gold assignment was a data entry or player name lookup error.
 
SWRLE said:
It is not realistic that someone could rise 50 points in that timeframe. The fact he was assigned a 625 starter rating indicates the 603 and Gold assignment was a data entry or player name lookup error.
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It shouldn't be and hopefully it isn't data entry. It should be a link between the BCAPL site and FargoRate.
 
As long as you can run racks or some balls in a bar box, anybody can beat anybody in a bar box, short race like 6. Just my 2 cents.
 
mikepage said:
Here is the scoop.

Russell's rating (including where it is now after BCAPL, which you don't see yet) has varied over the last year and a half 16 points in both directions from 633--a total of 32 point range. The drop that sent him down to 617 was after four tournaments (13 matches at Western BCA and Chinook Winds). So basically he was either going to be high in gold or low in platinum.

Bottom line is for him to do what he did last week required he pull things together and keep things together, what we all hope to achieve at tournaments like this. Let's just congratulate him!
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Mike,

My original question was regarding Joe Pierce II being in the gold division finals and being a 650+. Did he have a big point swing of 25 that allowed him to be placed in gold?
 
mikepage said:
Here is the scoop.

Russell's rating (including where it is now after BCAPL, which you don't see yet) has varied over the last year and a half 16 points in both directions from 633--a total of 32 point range. The drop that sent him down to 617 was after four tournaments (13 matches at Western BCA and Chinook Winds). So basically he was either going to be high in gold or low in platinum.

Bottom line is for him to do what he did last week required he pull things together and keep things together, what we all hope to achieve at tournaments like this. Let's just congratulate him!
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Well that's a big difference zero chance in platinum to winner of gold ,, yes congrats to him and no one said he was sandbagging , however if it can happen by accident it can happen on purpose ,
That's all Iv ever said ,

1
 
BRussell said:
I watched the stream when Manny Perez beat Mike Dechaine to win the 10-ball challenge. Perez doesn't have any games in FargoRate so was given the default 625. Mike is close to 800, so of course the percentages were 99-1 for much of the match. Jay was commentating and criticizing it saying he didn't believe in FargoRatings, which is understandable in that situation, but they shouldn't have used the ratings when Perez didn't really have one. Just an example of where the starter ratings caused confusion.

edit: Oh and at one point George the other commentator looked up Manny's rating to see if it was a starter rating, and came back on the stream and said he had 625 games in the system! :rolleyes:
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I was wondering why Manny didn't have a FargoRate but someone like Nick Evans does (636 games in FargoRate)? They played in many of the same events the past few years.
 
There's both a Manuel Perez and a Manny Perez from Kansas on FargoRate. Manny has 400+ games and Manuel has 0 games.
 
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