BCA -- On the Road to Nowhere

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Profession Pool will only prosper, and attract an audience IMHO when the Players can achieve a decent living off Playing Pool, and have a following of fans like other Sports have. Example being the NBA, NFL, NASCAR, MLB, and even Profession Wrestling who all have been able to attract major corporations to sponsor the sports, or events.

The WWE, formally the WWF was laughed at for years, as Professional Wrestling is really not a Sport, but Sports Entertainment. But if you look at what has happened with WrestleMania that will have its 27th Annual Event in Atlanta GA this weekend, I would say Pro Wrestling is a success.

Pool in the Island Nation of the Philippines is thriving, and in other part of Asia, and for the life of my I do not understand why American Pool has not researched what has made Pool succeed in Asia, and copy that business plan.

This is very logical and true, Cowboy. In order for this to happen, though, there needs to be a level playing field to let professional pool flourish.

Mark Griffin has the right idea with his league system and the CSI. This could actually be the change agent for professional pool in America.

Pool is popular in Philippines because their young'ns grow up in an environment where pool is heralded as a sport. Here in the States, even within our own pool culture, people put down pool, to include the constant nose-thumbing exhibited by the WPA and BCA in their actions.

I believe, if given a chance, the leagues and recreational pool model is the platform to build on. Get rid of the BCA. They're not doing anything except trying to make themselves fat. Professional pool isn't even on their agenda, yet they're suposed to be our representative. What a sick joke!
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You can always call Mark Griffin. He was there and now owns the BCAPool League.

He is very approachable and will enjoy talking to you.

Thanks Tom. I know that Mark was on the buying end of the deal. The BCA was on the selling end of it.

I just wanted to know what Jay meant by "....All one has to do is look at how they handled the selling of their league system...."
 

justnum

Billiards Improvement Research Projects Associate
Silver Member
The thing is, Justnum, the BCA doesn't give a damn. As long as their industry members are happy, they'll change rules willy-nilly to accommodate their sponsored players. It is those sponsored players helping them get fatter.

Lou Butera got it right decades ago. These industry organizations should be holding the Brunswick Open, the Predator Open, the Simonis Open, not just changing rules in the BCA to help a select few.

All others, aspiring pros and professional players, are left out in the cold. There is not one American entity looking out for their interests.

It's all about those industry "darlings." No wonder the existing lot of professional players in these United States is dwindling. Nobody gives a damn.

I am understanding the "industry darlings issue" as there is not enough competition. It would be better if the tops pros weren't relied on to headlines events. The ideal would be the top pros have their choice of activities to choose from. Maybe some pros feel more comfortable doing exhibitions instead of tournaments, others more interested in working with amateur leagues, some interested in some kind of player oversight
activity, maybe a few interested in starting up new tours.

from the info you give me it seem like the players know who has the money and who is spending it. If the only reason players get out is for the backer then take that away and find out what players want to do regardless of the money. (It makes more sense to get the players interested in the aspects of pool as an industry then to get them upset at how poorly things have gone in the past.)

What are the players willing to take chances on? Will they continue a never ending battle against "established promoters and organizers?" Are they interested in developing a "rival faction?" Would they consider letting an event go without the players?

Most times when the players have a chance to bargain it seem like they would rather incur the losses by playing the tournament then to take a chance and wait for something better. That seems to be the history up till now and with my outlook suggests nothing will change because players don't want to get involved in the "paper work of the pool industry."
 

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am understanding the "industry darlings issue" as there is not enough competition. It would be better if the tops pros weren't relied on to headlines events.....

The situation is this. There is currently a caste system in pool that I believe has been created by the BCA industry members. Rules are made to advantage the industy members and their sponsored players.

There's a handful of top pros, and then there's all the rest. The top pros are given privileges that the other pros aren't afforded. It is truly an upper class and a lower class. The lower class has no chance at rising in the ranks because there's not a level playing field. This is the problem.
 

justnum

Billiards Improvement Research Projects Associate
Silver Member
The situation is this. There is currently a caste system in pool that I believe has been created by the BCA industry members. Rules are made to advantage the industy members and their sponsored players.

There's a handful of top pros, and then there's all the rest. The top pros are given privileges that the other pros aren't afforded. It is truly an upper class and a lower class. The lower class has no chance at rising in the ranks because there's not a level playing field. This is the problem.

So you need separate events so that the top pros compete in a field that is at a competitive skill level and the lower pros compete in a field which helps them develop. The analogy I am thinking is full fat twinkies and reduced fat twinkies, people that can enjoy full fat eat full fat and the people that need to lose weight enjoy reduced fat twinkies.

What if the top pros designed the lower end pro tournaments so that people can see what pool tournaments for professionals should be like? It could be a little project for the pros that want to make change happen.
 

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So you need separate events so that the top pros compete in a field that is at a competitive skill level and the lower pros compete in a field which helps them develop. The analogy I am thinking is full fat twinkies and reduced fat twinkies, people that can enjoy full fat eat full fat and the people that need to lose weight enjoy reduced fat twinkies.

LOL! I'm going to have to gnaw on this concept ovrernight, I think. :p

I'm going to get ready for "Dancing With the Stars." I'm trying to talk my other half into turning in his cue stick for a pair of dancing shoes. :grin-square:
 

justnum

Billiards Improvement Research Projects Associate
Silver Member
LOL! I'm going to have to gnaw on this concept ovrernight, I think. :p

I'm going to get ready for "Dancing With the Stars." I'm trying to talk my other half into turning in his cue stick for a pair of dancing shoes. :grin-square:

This is a great thread followed up with posts of great content.
 

pro9dg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The situation is this. There is currently a caste system in pool that I believe has been created by the BCA industry members. Rules are made to advantage the industy members and their sponsored players.

There's a handful of top pros, and then there's all the rest. The top pros are given privileges that the other pros aren't afforded. It is truly an upper class and a lower class. The lower class has no chance at rising in the ranks because there's not a level playing field. This is the problem.

Sorry Jen
I just don't go along with this'privileged few' theory. Any American who can give a useful account of himself can get into major events. The Euro Tour excludes nobody by country.
They can play in the World 8 Ball, 9 Ball and 10 Ball. I'm not sure about the 14.1. They can play in the Matchroom World Cup of Pool and the World Masters.
Granted they might have to play qualifiers but if you are good enough......

Dennis Orcullo travelled to Ras Al Khaima to qualify for the World 8 Ball and went on to win the event. C J Wiley was invited to play in the World 8 Ball but declined for business commitments. I am sure that if Keith wanted to have a crack then his status would possibly earn him a wikdcard invitation (if his presence would add to the spectator appeal for the tournament).

So the shop is not as closed as you portray..
 

mlalum

Banned
The situation is this. There is currently a caste system in pool that I believe has been created by the BCA industry members. Rules are made to advantage the industy members and their sponsored players.

There's a handful of top pros, and then there's all the rest. The top pros are given privileges that the other pros aren't afforded. It is truly an upper class and a lower class. The lower class has no chance at rising in the ranks because there's not a level playing field. This is the problem.

This is just so much plebian hogwash. Fortunately you're saying it over and over. Professional men's pool is a non starter because they're is no market for it and the last thing anyone with money wants to do is sponsor a couple good folks in a sea of misguided young men. The BCA hasn't stopped anything. Professional pool players have stopped themselves.
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
This is just so much plebian hogwash. Fortunately you're saying it over and over. Professional men's pool is a non starter because they're is no market for it and the last thing anyone with money wants to do is sponsor a couple good folks in a sea of misguided young men. The BCA hasn't stopped anything. Professional pool players have stopped themselves.

Yes in many Cases Professional pool players have stopped themselves, ad promoters who do thing like not pay players, and promoters who write rubber checks.
 

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
Thanks Tom. I know that Mark was on the buying end of the deal. The BCA was on the selling end of it.

I just wanted to know what Jay meant by "....All one has to do is look at how they handled the selling of their league system...."

Fran,

Just look at the deep dark division between Mark Griffin of the BCAPL and John Lewis of the ACS. After Mark bought the BCAPL, there was a very wasteful war between the two entities. John Lewis was the director of the BCA pool leagues. Somehow, perhaps Mark can enlighten us, John was moved aside (out bid?) and Mark became the new director / owner. John promptly began his own sanctioning body (ACS) and fought hard for the individual leagues making up the old BCA pool league. Perhaps that is the basis of the comment made earlier in this thread about local leagues wanting to buy the BCA pool league. Regardless, six years later there is only a lull in the war. Not a peace treaty.

For the betterment of all players, a way must be found to bring all sides together. The BCAPL, ACS, VNEA, TAP, APA and other smaller regional sanctioning bodies must get together and support all pool players. Notice there is no mention of pro players? Only the BCAPL has made an attempt to bring those players into the group. Mark began the Grand Master event in Vegas which is open to anyone paying the entry fee. All the other bodies treat pro players as pariahs.

Personally, I find most American pros to be self centered, self serving and myopic. None of them care about the group. Only what they can personally benefit from. That is why they fail. Again and again. Maybe it's time for all the real sanctioning bodies of American pool to get together and form a new group to represent our interests to the WPA. All it takes is co-operation :p and a want / need to succeed!

Lyn
 

justnum

Billiards Improvement Research Projects Associate
Silver Member
Fran,

Just look at the deep dark division between Mark Griffin of the BCAPL and John Lewis of the ACS. After Mark bought the BCAPL, there was a very wasteful war between the two entities. John Lewis was the director of the BCA pool leagues. Somehow, perhaps Mark can enlighten us, John was moved aside (out bid?) and Mark became the new director / owner. John promptly began his own sanctioning body (ACS) and fought hard for the individual leagues making up the old BCA pool league. Perhaps that is the basis of the comment made earlier in this thread about local leagues wanting to buy the BCA pool league. Regardless, six years later there is only a lull in the war. Not a peace treaty.

For the betterment of all players, a way must be found to bring all sides together. The BCAPL, ACS, VNEA, TAP, APA and other smaller regional sanctioning bodies must get together and support all pool players. Notice there is no mention of pro players? Only the BCAPL has made an attempt to bring those players into the group. Mark began the Grand Master event in Vegas which is open to anyone paying the entry fee. All the other bodies treat pro players as pariahs.

Personally, I find most American pros to be self centered, self serving and myopic. None of them care about the group. Only what they can personally benefit from. That is why they fail. Again and again. Maybe it's time for all the real sanctioning bodies of American pool to get together and form a new group to represent our interests to the WPA. All it takes is co-operation :p and a want / need to succeed!

Lyn

That is why the BPA was formed so that people can focus on group thinking.

The Billiards Players Association is all about bringing players together. They probably have some junior version for the amateurs in their draft proposals.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fran,

Just look at the deep dark division between Mark Griffin of the BCAPL and John Lewis of the ACS. After Mark bought the BCAPL, there was a very wasteful war between the two entities. John Lewis was the director of the BCA pool leagues. Somehow, perhaps Mark can enlighten us, John was moved aside (out bid?) and Mark became the new director / owner. John promptly began his own sanctioning body (ACS) and fought hard for the individual leagues making up the old BCA pool league. Perhaps that is the basis of the comment made earlier in this thread about local leagues wanting to buy the BCA pool league. Regardless, six years later there is only a lull in the war. Not a peace treaty.

For the betterment of all players, a way must be found to bring all sides together. The BCAPL, ACS, VNEA, TAP, APA and other smaller regional sanctioning bodies must get together and support all pool players. Notice there is no mention of pro players? Only the BCAPL has made an attempt to bring those players into the group. Mark began the Grand Master event in Vegas which is open to anyone paying the entry fee. All the other bodies treat pro players as pariahs.

Personally, I find most American pros to be self centered, self serving and myopic. None of them care about the group. Only what they can personally benefit from. That is why they fail. Again and again. Maybe it's time for all the real sanctioning bodies of American pool to get together and form a new group to represent our interests to the WPA. All it takes is co-operation :p and a want / need to succeed!

Lyn

I do understand your point about shifting the power away from the BCA but I can assure you without question, based on everything I have ever learned in this industry --- and that is --- be careful of what you ask for. You may have hated the BCA for being in the game all these years, but they never missed a dues payment to the WPA. That's about 30 years of 10 grand a year, not to mention an additional 250k for their annual pro event. While they were paying dues and paying for the pro event, most of the other organizations were either fighting within, going bankrupt, what else? Oh yes, folding and then reforming under other names. I heard that was a common tactic used by league operators to get out of paying off their debts.

It would be awfully nice if every amateur player would kick in 50 cents a week to support the pros but that could have been done all along by the all of the amateur organizations any time they wanted, if they so chose. They obviously chose not to. It's nice to know that's all going to change once the balance of power shifts.

Nobody knows what will happen once power shifts, and I believe it will shift, and I believe it will be in the fairly near future. I don't see how the BCA would be willing to want to continue laying out the money for a group of people who supposedly hate them so much. That's like you coming up to me and saying, "Hi Fran, I hate you." And then I would say, "Hi Lyn, Thanks so much for saying that and let me go to the bank and send the WPA 10 grand on your behalf."

Once the power shifts, there will be no golden goose. There will be more fighting and jockeying for power. The system we have now is far from perfect but I watched it improve on a steady basis these past 4 years, and for the first time in a very long time I felt like I was starting to see some progress, particularly with the formation of the BCA/WPA committee and how the BCA was actively interacting with the other players organizations on a regular basis. Decisions weren't being made by one person sitting behind a desk in some office, nor were players being held hostage by a bullying player's association. There was some real communication going on.

But like I said, when that balance of power does shift, and I believe it will, you guys had better be ready for it. It's a huge responsibility.
 

Wags

2 pocket-one pocket table
Silver Member
I do understand your point about shifting the power away from the BCA but I can assure you without question, based on everything I have ever learned in this industry --- and that is --- be careful of what you ask for. You may have hated the BCA for being in the game all these years, but they never missed a dues payment to the WPA. That's about 30 years of 10 grand a year, not to mention an additional 250k for their annual pro event. While they were paying dues and paying for the pro event, most of the other organizations were either fighting within, going bankrupt, what else? Oh yes, folding and then reforming under other names. I heard that was a common tactic used by league operators to get out of paying off their debts.

It would be awfully nice if every amateur player would kick in 50 cents a week to support the pros but that could have been done all along by the all of the amateur organizations any time they wanted, if they so chose. They obviously chose not to. It's nice to know that's all going to change once the balance of power shifts.

Nobody knows what will happen once power shifts, and I believe it will shift, and I believe it will be in the fairly near future. I don't see how the BCA would be willing to want to continue laying out the money for a group of people who supposedly hate them so much. That's like you coming up to me and saying, "Hi Fran, I hate you." And then I would say, "Hi Lyn, Thanks so much for saying that and let me go to the bank and send the WPA 10 grand on your behalf."

Once the power shifts, there will be no golden goose. There will be more fighting and jockeying for power. The system we have now is far from perfect but I watched it improve on a steady basis these past 4 years, and for the first time in a very long time I felt like I was starting to see some progress, particularly with the formation of the BCA/WPA committee and how the BCA was actively interacting with the other players organizations on a regular basis. Decisions weren't being made by one person sitting behind a desk in some office, nor were players being held hostage by a bullying player's association. There was some real communication going on.

But like I said, when that balance of power does shift, and I believe it will, you guys had better be ready for it. It's a huge responsibility.

Fran, check your pm's.
 

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sorry Jen
I just don't go along with this'privileged few' theory. Any American who can give a useful account of himself can get into major events. The Euro Tour excludes nobody by country.
They can play in the World 8 Ball, 9 Ball and 10 Ball. I'm not sure about the 14.1. They can play in the Matchroom World Cup of Pool and the World Masters.
Granted they might have to play qualifiers but if you are good enough......

Dennis Orcullo travelled to Ras Al Khaima to qualify for the World 8 Ball and went on to win the event. C J Wiley was invited to play in the World 8 Ball but declined for business commitments. I am sure that if Keith wanted to have a crack then his status would possibly earn him a wikdcard invitation (if his presence would add to the spectator appeal for the tournament).

So the shop is not as closed as you portray..

Doug, I am speaking about rules changed willy-nilly to accommodate BCA industry members' sponsored players, rules that are changed by the industry members themselves. The "privileged few" sponsored players get their expenses paid for by these industry members, and if they had a hand in changing the rule to get their sponsored player a pass to compete in the WPA-sanctioned event, it doesn't seem fair, but that's just a recent BCA hiccup.

Mike Zuglan got so sick of pool politics and favoritism of a "privileged few" that he left professional pool and created a pool entity where he could still enjoy pool to the fullest, and he makes damn sure that all players are treated equal. If Efren Reyes is late for his match on the Joss Tour, Efren Reyes will be forfeited, not given leeway like some other tournament organizers do for the "privileged few."

Both entities, the WPA and the BCA, do things behind closed curtains, and there is no transparency. Changes in sanctioning fee amounts, as one example, for the WPA was changed to a higher amount. Nobody knew about this rule change until after the fact. Why doesn't the WPA connect with the public via press releases? What do they have to hide? What's going on behind the closed curtain that prevents them from being transparent? They owe it to the pool public to inform them of the latest happenings. At the very least, they should inform the dues-paying BCA, and then it's up to the BCA to inform the public what's happening.

I'm getting the feeling from this thread, sad to say, that there is one school of thought that the WPA looks down at the plebeian pool public and doesn't think it's important to keep us informed. I am forming this opinion because of a recurring theme of flippant posts in this thread defending the WPA, as if connecting with the public is beneath them. It may be good for them to obtain the services of a public affairs person who knows how to speak to the public, instead of defenders of the WPA mocking and ridiculing anybody who asks questions why.

Some posters on this thread who don't even hang out on this forum, like you and me, Doug, are taking words written in this thread and twisting them around to mean something that they don't. It's pretty damn serious to somebody like me who sacrificed my business, lived out of a suitcase, dropped six figures and 10 years of my life in trying to make a go of this so-called "professional tournmament trail" in America.

I did, in fact, contact the BCA about several matters in that 10 years as it pertained to what I deemed as an unlevel playing field and discriminatory practices. The response on competing in the BCA Open that I got was, "We don't have anything to do with who gets to play in our BCA Open" -- Oh, really? -- "We sub that out to a vendor. You'll have to contact them," which I did.

The vendor, however, made decisions about who they wanted to compete in the BCA Open. It was supposed to be based at that time on the UPA ranking points. The vendor even went so far as to say there was a waiting list. Meanwhile, UPA-ranked players, ranked higher than the "privileged few" the vendor let play, were not allowed to play in the BCA Open and thus lost out on getting precious ranking points. I won't even get into the fact that the BCA Open wasn't even an "open" but was an invitational, with HALF -- yes, that's right -- HALF of its player field given to foreign non-American players. This was the BCA's once-a-year contribution to North American professional pool in these United States for its North American professional pool constituency.

The BCA has created this atmosphere in America by ignoring professional pool and concentrating on their industry members' interests. That is fine. I get it. No problem. They should let go of being the authoritative body for professional pool in North America, if this is their true mission.

It's time for a change. The BCA organization seems to be suffering financial hardships, like everybody is these days, so getting rid of professional pool can relieve them and allow them to improve in other areas that their industry members would like.

I have to go downtown today to the Senate. They're hearing from members of one group about appropriations to further their cause. The Senators represent their constituencies. All interests are represented, not just one or two. As a collective group, they work together, hearing the pros and cons. Then they vote. It's not a perfect system, but it's fair. This is the way the BCA should operate, not behind closed curtains with decisions being made by one interest only to favor a "privileged few."
 
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JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is a great thread followed up with posts of great content.

Yes, it is; that is, until some twist words around.

Look, I would be very supportive of the BCA if I could see -- "see" being the key word -- what they were doing to help professional pool. I don't see anything. Every year, the BCA relieves themselves of a little more as it pertains to pool in general.

No BCA Open. No monies to help BCA-ranked players to attend overseas WPA-sanctioned tournaments. Now no trade show.

Since some on this forum enjoy kicking aspiring and professional pool players while they're down on their belly, it is easy to blame them for the lack of pool's popularity in the United States. Some -- not all -- members of the pool culture in America write mean-spirited words about professional pool players ad nauseum on this forum, labeling them names, but they're the first ones in line at events getting an autograph and their pictures taken, wanting to be seen in public with these awful pros.

There's a plethora of problems with professional pool in the States. It's not only the BCA's lack of involvement that is troubling. I realize this. Having a men's organization would be a good start, but whoever at the BCA gave the UPA the green light sure did hurt professional pool. That was a dictatorship and not an organization representing its pool player members.

I would venture to guess the the voting BCA industry member(s) sponsored the prospective UPA member(s) that they granted to be the governing body of men's professional pool. Business as usual at the BCA.
 
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cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
I do understand your point about shifting the power away from the BCA but I can assure you without question, based on everything I have ever learned in this industry --- and that is --- be careful of what you ask for. You may have hated the BCA for being in the game all these years...

I never hated the BCA. My beef is they do virtually nothing for the players anymore. If they have no involvement, why do they represent the players? I would much prefer to have someone from the players side represent me rather than an industry talking head who is indebted to pool related manufacturers. Larry Hubbart and Mark Griffin have figured out how to run a players organization and make them profitable. One of them makes more sense to me.

It would be awfully nice if every amateur player would kick in 50 cents a week to support the pros but that could have been done all along by the all of the amateur organizations any time they wanted, if they so chose. They obviously chose not to. It's nice to know that's all going to change once the balance of power shifts.

It is being done to the best of my knowledge. Another of Mark Griffin's entities, USAPL collects a small amount of money each week from the players to put into a "pro fund". I'm listed as a member but I've only been a sub on a friends team when in Vegas. Again Mark might bring some light to this subject.

Concurrently, why should the amateur players support a "pro" anyway? Wouldn't a professional pool player be someone whose sole source of income is derived from playing pool? For money? With sponsorship from pool related manufacturers? Seems to me asking an amateur player to support a professional is a stretch anyway. It shifts the burden off the pool industry's shoulders. They should be supporting the pros, not me! My guess is Joe Average golfer on any given day would react the same way if asked to send Tiger Woods to an event. That's why Tiger has a Nike emblem on his cloths! And his bag. And his hat. And his...... The dark side of that is having a player of Dennis Hatch's ability showing up to a regional event and "stealing" the money. Primarily because he has no where else to go. Quite a conundrum eh?

Lyn
 

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I never hated the BCA. My beef is they do virtually nothing for the players anymore. If they have no involvement, why do they represent the players? I would much prefer to have someone from the players side represent me rather than an industry talking head who is indebted to pool related manufacturers. Larry Hubbart and Mark Griffin have figured out how to run a players organization and make them profitable. One of them makes more sense to me.

It is being done to the best of my knowledge. Another of Mark Griffin's entities, USAPL collects a small amount of money each week from the players to put into a "pro fund". I'm listed as a member but I've only been a sub on a friends team when in Vegas. Again Mark might bring some light to this subject.

Concurrently, why should the amateur players support a "pro" anyway? Wouldn't a professional pool player be someone whose sole source of income is derived from playing pool? For money? With sponsorship from pool related manufacturers? Seems to me asking an amateur player to support a professional is a stretch anyway. It shifts the burden off the pool industry's shoulders. They should be supporting the pros, not me! My guess is Joe Average golfer on any given day would react the same way if asked to send Tiger Woods to an event. That's why Tiger has a Nike emblem on his cloths! And his bag. And his hat. And his...... The dark side of that is having a player of Dennis Hatch's ability showing up to a regional event and "stealing" the money. Primarily because he has no where else to go. Quite a conundrum eh?

Lyn

Wow, Lyn! Those are, indeed, some words of wisdom. Well said. Spoken by someone who knows what time of day it is in the pool world!

Enjoyed the read! :)
 
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