BCA Open team from TAIWAN disqualified?

smoooothstroke said:
Sounds like the league op for that Taiwan league is either dishonest or inexperienced at rating players.

I know where I play there is a player on the ratings comity who wont let players of known ability slip into a lower division even for regional tourneys.Every regional event there is some "known" player who thinks he can play in the open B because he has never gone to a BCA event.At regionals the open divisions are much larger then the masters because people want to play in the easiest division that they are allowed to.So many people playing in the lowest possible division can actually make that bracket harder to win then a higher bracket.
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LO's rate their players on their ability of play and compare that to other individuals within their group. I have seen people rated as a 7 or the highest level that that area has...(because he beat everyone in his/her area) only to arrive at the final tournament and get beat very easily by a similar rated player from a different division. This especially occurs in rural areas instead of cities.

I know you are wrong in your assumption that they were dishonest or inexperienced.
 
klockdoc said:
LO's rate their players on their ability of play and compare that to other individuals within their group. I have seen people rated as a 7 or the highest level that that area has...(because he beat everyone in his/her area) only to arrive at the final tournament and get beat very easily by a similar rated player from a different division. This especially occurs in rural areas instead of cities.

I know you are wrong in your assumption that they were dishonest or inexperienced.
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I was referring to BCAPL,the players rating for weekly league matches does not reflect on what division they play in at regional or national events.

I concur that a player from an isolated league or small town might be over rated due to lack of competition,this also can happen with an in-house league.The Western BCA where I play has several people on a ratings comity who may or may not be league operators but can rate a players skill based on how they do in weekly tourneys and matching up for $.
 
LOL, Vietnam coming to dominate next yr!!! Crosses finger. :welcome:

Now, that sucks for me.

I'm asian and I'm Viet. Lets say I have been playing for BCA for 4 yrs and only once to get into the money before the final board, the other years I didnt play cause it was much to improve, and finally the 5th year I suddenly dominate the singles tournament out of the blue undefeated and get DQ in the finals just like the Taiwanese or any overseas participants. AND even if it was a fact, being stated as an "Open" player. On top of that you have players that know how you play and was in shock for the first time that you did awesome.

That would suck. Someone going to complain, yada yada yada. The look of my eyes would be this... :mad: Hard effort went down the drain.

FYI, I was born in the USA. :thumbup:

I understand, it may be a joke to Mark on hating asian but it may catch up later on and when someone gets torture or lose to an asian pool player or someone overseas that doesnt understand english, doesn't know what skill level their at, never won a tournament in his/her life time... the story is going to start all over again when this thread was posted.

Im going to come in with a Vietnam Flag on my shirt... BEWARE LOL.
 
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:wink:
VietSoClassic said:
LOL, Vietnam coming to dominate next yr!!! Crosses finger. :welcome:

Now, that sucks for me.

I'm asian and I'm Viet. Lets say I have been playing for BCA for 4 yrs and only once to get into the money before the final board, the other years I didnt play cause it was much to improve, and finally the 5th year I suddenly dominate the singles tournament out of the blue undefeated and get DQ in the finals just like the Taiwanese or any overseas participants. AND even if it was a fact, being stated as an "Open" player. On top of that you have players that know how you play and was in shock for the first time that you did awesome.

That would suck. Someone going to complain, yada yada yada. The look of my eyes would be this... :mad: Hard effort went down the drain.

FYI, I was born in the USA. :thumbup:

I understand, it may be a joke to Mark on hating asian but it may catch up later on and when someone gets torture or lose to an asian pool player or someone overseas that doesnt understand english, doesn't know what skill level their at, never won a tournament in his/her life time... the story is going to start all over again when this thread was posted.

Im going to come in with a Vietnam Flag on my shirt... BEWARE LOL.
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If you had never ever played before, the scanario above might happen. But since you had played in the past, I don't see you being disqualified. (unless you wanna be :wink: )
 
Hungarian said:
Yo Viet,

Catch me up on this.

Were the Taiwaniean players that much better? i.e., were they robbing Danny Lee and Blaine?

Was this justified?
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Let me give you my impression. Unfortunately I did not play either guy. However I did play a few players on the one loss side. Do you know Michael Perron Jr? How about Brad Hughes? Ron Allen? Brad Poorman? Dustin Morris? Lost to Luke Thomas hill/hill. He lost to Shawn Cheng his next match to finish fourth place. My guess is their game is currently around players like Glen Atwell, Stan Tourangeau or Jesse Engel. Awefully strong for Open players. Just my take.

Lyn
 
CSI was in a very difficult spot. One that made it impossible to make everybody happy.

Kudos for what did happen...

I know Luke Thomas...nice guy and a good player. But being brutally honest here? He'd have to be having a very good day & Glenn Atwell would have to be having a very bad day for Luke to hang with Glenn.
 
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pwd72s said:
CSI was in a very difficult spot. One that made it impossible to make everybody happy.

Kudos for what did happen...

I know Luke Thomas...nice guy and a good player. But being brutally honest here? He'd have to be having a very good day & Glenn Atwell would have to be having a very bad day for Luke to hang with Glenn.
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PWD,

Thats my point!!!! These guys were really, really good. With two of the other Taiwanese players, they won the Advanced Team 8 Ball. As I said in an earlier post, I'm thankful their team was moved from the Open to Advanced as the team I played on would not have finished second. Or won the hot seat match. As much as I would like to think I might have beaten at least one of the two guys, knowing how well Luke played, doubt it would have happened. Then again, you never know. Never dreamed I'd have done as well as I did :shocked2:.

Lyn
 
Both Huang and Cheng could have won matches and have a shot at the money in the US Open 10 Ball that was going on at the same time.
 
cardiac kid said:
Let me give you my impression. Unfortunately I did not play either guy. However I did play a few players on the one loss side. Do you know Michael Perron Jr? How about Brad Hughes? Ron Allen? Brad Poorman? Dustin Morris? Lost to Luke Thomas hill/hill. He lost to Shawn Cheng his next match to finish fourth place. My guess is their game is currently around players like Glen Atwell, Stan Tourangeau or Jesse Engel. Awefully strong for Open players. Just my take.

Lyn
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Dustin Morris, is a 100% jackoff. Got a bighead and for no reason, hes noone.
 
So these guys were "semi disqualified"? Hundreds of other folks traveled to Vegas at considerable personal expense. Most did not win enough money to cover their expenses. They came to play pool and did not cheat. $5,500 for these two players on the presumption that they may not have known what they were doing is ridiculous. They may not speak English but they're not stupid. They knew exactly the situation. Rewarding a scam is silly.

JC
 
JC said:
So these guys were "semi disqualified"? Hundreds of other folks traveled to Vegas at considerable personal expense. Most did not win enough money to cover their expenses. They came to play pool and did not cheat. $5,500 for these two players on the presumption that they may not have known what they were doing is ridiculous. They may not speak English but they're not stupid. They knew exactly the situation. Rewarding a scam is silly.

JC
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Thats about where I sit too...They came to Vegas to take it down..they got busted,an rewarded some traveling money,
I don't think their country would have done the same.
Should say league op's,not country.
 
There should simply be something called a performance standard that should apply to every player. This should include things like participation and finishes in professional level tournaments. Each player should sign a binding contract that says they read and understand the rules covering this. Each player is thus subject to disqualification and no reimbursement of the money should it be found out that they are playing at in a division that is not commensurate with their true skill.

And each player should be required to sign up under the name that is on their passport. Leagues can and should request information on all foreign players with the organization that covers them in their home countries. In the case of Taiwan this would be the CTBA and the APBU.

If a player has never cashed in a professional level event then they should be allowed to play in the open division regardless of how good they are. The biggest disadvantage of allowing foreign teams is their ability to build super teams. They are not constrained by geographic regions and distance as American players are. It's impossible to legally get five shortstops from across America to build a team through a regular league season. But in other countries they are able to pick the best players from each region to form their teams. And in fact some of these countries openly have tournaments where the winners are competing for spots on the team.

It would be quite a nice event if the BCA would hold an international team tournament where each country could send their best amateur/semi-pro players and compete in the BCA format. Perhaps that is what the advanced division already is but the thought is a more formal world tournament. Being that it's in the USA it would be hoped that the USA would field a lot of teams. Imagine a tournament where we were not looking for players to disqualify but instead we were looking for as many teams as possible to come and play.

32 teams from around the world. $50,000 first prize. Only criteria is that no individual player can have been ranked in the top 64 on any professional ranking list within 24 months of the event. Streamed and sponsored to hilt. Documentaries, human interest, radio, tv, and the wildcard is that the winner of the open division has an automatic spot in the world event.

One can dream of a time when we aren't talking penalties and are talking about who we want to root for.
 
Roadie said:
There should simply be something called a performance standard that should apply to every player. This should include things like participation and finishes in professional level tournaments. Each player should sign a binding contract that says they read and understand the rules covering this. Each player is thus subject to disqualification and no reimbursement of the money should it be found out that they are playing at in a division that is not commensurate with their true skill.
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If you read the ENTIRE BCAPL entry form, you are signing a contract pretty much as you describe. One major problem. Who is a professional and how do you become one? You can look up and down the BCAPL tournament information and there is no list of who "they" are. There is a list of Amatuer Grand Master players. Ever look at it?

The line is actually further blurred as the Grand Master division allows ANYONE to participate in an "Amatuer" event. If I could convince Shane Van Boening or Johnny Archer to play the required eight matches in our local league, he can play on a Mixed Master's team from our league in Vegas!!!! Luckily, we were the only entry in that division :p.

The ACS tells you the specific criteria. Top 128 on the WPA money list. Top 32 Women. Top 32 on the Men's AZ money list. Top 32 Women from the WPBA list. The VNEA lists the top 32 Men and Women. The APA only talks about the WPBA. There is no easily available list of who else the APA considers a "pro".

roadie said:
And each player should be required to sign up under the name that is on their passport. Leagues can and should request information on all foreign players with the organization that covers them in their home countries. In the case of Taiwan this would be the CTBA and the APBU.
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In order to get paid, you must present a photo ID and sign the related tax forms. Not sure of the international tax aspects of the payouts. I've seen IRS withholding forms non-American players must sign offered at the various events I've played in. My guess is all the American National pool leagues require the same forms be signed.

roadie said:
If a player has never cashed in a professional level event then they should be allowed to play in the open division regardless of how good they are. The biggest disadvantage of allowing foreign teams is their ability to build super teams. They are not constrained by geographic regions and distance as American players are. It's impossible to legally get five shortstops from across America to build a team through a regular league season. But in other countries they are able to pick the best players from each region to form their teams. And in fact some of these countries openly have tournaments where the winners are competing for spots on the team.
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There have been several threads over the years discussing the participation of "National" teams from England, Spain, Portugal and now Taiwan. Just wait for the Phillipines to participate!!! Each of the American sanctioning bodies walk a thin line. If you do not allow these international players and teams to participate, you risk losing the foreignl sanctioning body to another less critical group. In my view, it's still about the money.

roadie said:
It would be quite a nice event if the BCA would hold an international team tournament where each country could send their best amateur/semi-pro players and compete in the BCA format. Perhaps that is what the advanced division already is but the thought is a more formal world tournament. Being that it's in the USA it would be hoped that the USA would field a lot of teams. Imagine a tournament where we were not looking for players to disqualify but instead we were looking for as many teams as possible to come and play.

32 teams from around the world. $50,000 first prize. Only criteria is that no individual player can have been ranked in the top 64 on any professional ranking list within 24 months of the event. Streamed and sponsored to hilt. Documentaries, human interest, radio, tv, and the wildcard is that the winner of the open division has an automatic spot in the world event.

One can dream of a time when we aren't talking penalties and are talking about who we want to root for.
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In a perfect world perhaps. Isn't what you are suggesting the already in the realm of the WPA? Sure love to see the list of eligible "amatuer" players :rolleyes:. Incidentally, I'm assuming you mean the BCAPL when you refer to the BCA.

Lyn
 
Trophy league

JCIN said:
Squirm out of it?

How?

By explaining the situation in public and being transparent about the the whole deal?

Great way to try and slide under the radar there.

For the life of me I do not understand why anyone has anything to do with leagues. From playing in them to running them. It seems everyone involved is pissed off about something.

If they play good and win they get pissed when they are moved up.

If they play bad and lose they are pissed because someone played better and wasn't moved up before they played them.

If you do play good and get moved up but are not pissed about it...you wait a year and find out lo and behold when there are only a fraction of the entries in higher divisions the prize fund is much lower so you get really pissed.

If you run a league and can not accurately handicap every human being on the planet sight unseen everyone gets pissed.

If you run a league and make an error then do your best to fix it people are pissed.

If you try to slow roll your way into a tournament to snap it off everyone is pissed. If you do snap it off and get caught then you are pissed.

Makes my head hurt thinking about the whole thing. For the life of me I will never understand why Mark or anyone else fools with it at all.

Just some random thoughts brought on by raging insomnia. My solution is dont pay out any money at all. Trophies. Think trophies. What could go wrong?
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I played in the High Country Pool League in Co Springs for 18 years. We were BCA sanctioned. I'm not sure if its still around, i'm not out there anymore. We had on the average 100 teams, Thats like 800 players, all trophy league. 1 prize, team that won the winter session playoffs got entered and sponsored to go to vegas. Everybody else who qualified for one, got trophies or a jacket. Those jackets were highly prized i can tell you. 1 league person got paid, the league secretary who did the paper work. They were paid a weekly stipend. League president, vice president etc were elected by the players and were not paid. All monies and books etc were transparent and nobody else got paid. It was the best league i ever played in.Very few arguments and none about how good you played. It wasn't an issue. And we had 1 heck of a party and trophy presentation in the summer for the players Everybody had fun and played there hearts out for those trophies and jackets. Your team could play tuesday nights and win 13-0 or loose 13-0 Everybody had fun anyway...
 
You know, it is my experience that normally the guy that wins any division is a guy that should be bumped or what ever. I like how folks on here want to hop on the old high horse like they wouldn't do the same. Or that they would have outed them. these guys took advantage no doubt, but it's not there job to make sure the BCA classes them right. I don't think they should be there, but when ever i play a tournament, I play where classed whether high or low. The BCA is directly to blame for not catching this sooner, IMO. I agree with whoever said, If they are from a different country, or your not sure put them in a higher division. better to piss off one guy, than xxx many players, who might not come back.

I'm not blasting the BCA here, we all make mistakes. Learn and move on.

This much drama because a guy "robbed" a tournament... Like it's never happened before. They snook one past the goaly. get over it. it's going to happen again. Like Mike said, its race to five, barbox 8ball. NO ONE is stealing...

just my little $.02,

Justin
 
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