On the break the player hits the cue ball so low it jumps over the rack hits the end rail then hits the bottom of the rack breaking the balls... leagal or not. if not then what
BCA rule ?
- Thread starter Mowem down
- Start date
What game are you playing?
In 8 ball should be ok if all other requirements of the break shot were met.
In 9 ball, definitely not because you must hit the 1 ball first.
scooping is only if it is intentional. otherwise it is like any other miscue. imo it is ok as long as no rule says balls must be hit before the rail is hit or the other requirements for the break are not met
It wouldn't be legal in 8-ball either as the cueball must strike the head ball or the second row first to be a legal break.
Maniac
I just looked at BCA rules again and see no such requirement unless there is a later version. All I see for legal break shot is:
4.5 LEGAL BREAK SHOT
(Defined) To execute a legal break, the breaker (with the cue ball behind the head string) must either (1) pocket a ball, or (2) drive at least four numbered balls to the rail. When the breaker fails to make a legal break, it is a foul, and the incoming player has the option of (1) accepting the table in position and shooting, or (2) having the balls re-racked and having the option of shooting the opening break or allowing the offending player to re-break.
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Straight from the BCA rulebook.. "4.5 LEGAL BREAK SHOT
(Defined) To execute a legal break, the breaker (with the cue ball behind the head string) must either (1) pocket a ball, or (2) drive at least four numbered balls to the rail. When the breaker fails to make a legal break, it is a foul, and the incoming player has the option of (1) accepting the table in position and shooting, or (2) having the balls re-racked and having the option of shooting the opening break or allowing the offending player to re-break."
Although I too thought you had to hit the first 3 rows of balls, not first 2, it is not mentioned in the rulebook?? You can interpret as you see fit but this info was from the BCA World Standardized Rules..
Looks like Dawg and I were posting this at the same time
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here ya go.....
2.3 Break Requirements
1. You begin the break with ball in hand behind the head string. There is no requirement to call a ball on the break shot or for the cue ball to contact any particular ball first. You must pocket a ball or cause at least four object balls to contact one or more cushions or it is an illegal break. If you pocket a ball, you continue to shoot. If you do not pocket a ball or you commit a foul, your inning ends. (AR p. 88)
2.3 Break Requirements
1. You begin the break with ball in hand behind the head string. There is no requirement to call a ball on the break shot or for the cue ball to contact any particular ball first. You must pocket a ball or cause at least four object balls to contact one or more cushions or it is an illegal break. If you pocket a ball, you continue to shoot. If you do not pocket a ball or you commit a foul, your inning ends. (AR p. 88)
Official BCAPL response
For games governed by BCAPL Rules:
In 9-Ball or 10-Ball, the shot is a foul because the 1-ball was not the first ball contacted.
In 8-Ball, 14.1, One Pocket and Bank Pool, the shot is legal provided that the "scoop" was not intentional and that the requirements of the opening break were met. If the requirements of the opening break were not met it is an illegal break, and the specific game rules concerning an illegal break apply.
BCAPL Rules 1.18, 1.19, 1.32, Applied Ruling 1.30/1.32 fifth paragraph apply. BCAPL Rules 2.3, 3.3, 4.3, 5.4, 6.3 or 7.3 also apply depending on the game being played.
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx
* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
For games governed by BCAPL Rules:
In 9-Ball or 10-Ball, the shot is a foul because the 1-ball was not the first ball contacted.
In 8-Ball, 14.1, One Pocket and Bank Pool, the shot is legal provided that the "scoop" was not intentional and that the requirements of the opening break were met. If the requirements of the opening break were not met it is an illegal break, and the specific game rules concerning an illegal break apply.
BCAPL Rules 1.18, 1.19, 1.32, Applied Ruling 1.30/1.32 fifth paragraph apply. BCAPL Rules 2.3, 3.3, 4.3, 5.4, 6.3 or 7.3 also apply depending on the game being played.
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx
* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
Slim Limpy
New member
**********
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Stand by please - I have the answer but it's lengthy to do properly and I'm booked solid through Monday night...
Who says this has to be a miscue? My cue ball jumps when I break already ... what if I slammed the heck out of it and accidentally lifted the back end of my cue on the break and somehow (one in million) jumped the rack completely and then hit the back rail and rebounded into the rack?
I don't see anything that says I have to hit the front of the rack in an 8 ball break ... as long as the requirements are met it should be a legal break.
I don't see anything that says I have to hit the front of the rack in an 8 ball break ... as long as the requirements are met it should be a legal break.
More from the BCAPL...
Sorry for the delay, Slim. I had a student postpone and have a few hours now.
What follows is BCAPL specific. While I have no reason to believe the ruling itself would be different under WSR, I have limited insight to their writing process, so I cannot speak to their intent. Anyway, for BCAPL play...
The miscue is not recognized the same way nor treated the same way if it is intentional. Under BCAPL rules, a miscue is, by definition, unintentional. If a "scoop" is intentional, it is a foul under BCAPL Rule 1.34.1. While the determination of intent may be problematic, it is nevertheless a matter of referee judgment.
On a side note, the shot described by Paulie, as he observes, is not a miscue and therefore not applicable to a discussion of miscues. Whether or not the shot is a miscue or a legal jump, (regardless of the intention to legally jump), is again a matter of referee judgment.
Now we assume that the referee has determined that there is in fact a miscue as defined by BCAPL rules. The question is: why is there no penalty. This principle applies to any shot with a miscue - not just the OP's shot.
When the BCAPL published it's first edition (2007), there was little if any discussion about the procedure. As with many other subjects, the historical application of WSR was pulled in, and the historical application for miscues in WSR is not to penalize them, absent of any foul occurring elsewhere during the shot. I can't speak to the origin of the practice, but that is the way it has been generally applied under WSR since at least 1998, and likely for many years before that. Messrs. Jewett or Shamos may be able to speak more authoritatively to the WSR application history.
With the 2008 re-write, WSR preserved the application concerning miscues under WSR 8.18 and 6.16(c). It is also of note that in 2008 WSR dropped the provision of the pre-2008 Rule 3.27 that miscues on jump shots were automatically fouls. That is no longer the case.
During the preparation of the 2009 edition of the BCAPL rules, the issue was reviewed and discussed by the BCAPL National Office, albeit mostly in conjuction with a review of miscue penalties during an intentional attempt to perform a legal jump shot.
In short, the decision was that the "unintentional" part of the definition or "miscue" would remain. As far as penalizing miscues, the discussion and decision was driven by the fact that it is usually very unlikely that a miscue is going to end up with a happy result for the shooter. The huge majority of the time it will result in either a miss or a foul for no cushion. Even on the less common ocurrence that the called ball is legally pocketed, the miscue will likely rob the shooter of the intended position for the next shot. In the end, it was decided that, between the historical application, the likely unfortunate result for the shooter, and the unintentional nature of the event, that miscues would not be penalized. BCAPL Applied Ruling 1.30/1.32, fifth paragraph applies.
While there is no specific language regarding the lack of a penalty for a miscue in the BCAPL rules, penalties cannot be issued without a basis for doing so. Therefore, a miscue cannot be penalized. Again, remember that under BCAPL rules a miscue is defined as being unintentional. BCAPL 1.34.1 covers the intentional "scoop".
Largely thanks to your inquiries here, look for language clarifying "no penalty" for other miscues and a foul for intentional miscues in the next edition of the BCAPL rules. Also, miscues in association with jump shots will once again be on the table for the 2011 edition of the BCAPL rules, specifically in reference to the practice of using the shaft to execute "jump" shots from extremely close distances.
All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules. :smile:
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx
* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
Sorry for the delay, Slim. I had a student postpone and have a few hours now.
What follows is BCAPL specific. While I have no reason to believe the ruling itself would be different under WSR, I have limited insight to their writing process, so I cannot speak to their intent. Anyway, for BCAPL play...
The miscue is not recognized the same way nor treated the same way if it is intentional. Under BCAPL rules, a miscue is, by definition, unintentional. If a "scoop" is intentional, it is a foul under BCAPL Rule 1.34.1. While the determination of intent may be problematic, it is nevertheless a matter of referee judgment.
On a side note, the shot described by Paulie, as he observes, is not a miscue and therefore not applicable to a discussion of miscues. Whether or not the shot is a miscue or a legal jump, (regardless of the intention to legally jump), is again a matter of referee judgment.
Now we assume that the referee has determined that there is in fact a miscue as defined by BCAPL rules. The question is: why is there no penalty. This principle applies to any shot with a miscue - not just the OP's shot.
When the BCAPL published it's first edition (2007), there was little if any discussion about the procedure. As with many other subjects, the historical application of WSR was pulled in, and the historical application for miscues in WSR is not to penalize them, absent of any foul occurring elsewhere during the shot. I can't speak to the origin of the practice, but that is the way it has been generally applied under WSR since at least 1998, and likely for many years before that. Messrs. Jewett or Shamos may be able to speak more authoritatively to the WSR application history.
With the 2008 re-write, WSR preserved the application concerning miscues under WSR 8.18 and 6.16(c). It is also of note that in 2008 WSR dropped the provision of the pre-2008 Rule 3.27 that miscues on jump shots were automatically fouls. That is no longer the case.
During the preparation of the 2009 edition of the BCAPL rules, the issue was reviewed and discussed by the BCAPL National Office, albeit mostly in conjuction with a review of miscue penalties during an intentional attempt to perform a legal jump shot.
In short, the decision was that the "unintentional" part of the definition or "miscue" would remain. As far as penalizing miscues, the discussion and decision was driven by the fact that it is usually very unlikely that a miscue is going to end up with a happy result for the shooter. The huge majority of the time it will result in either a miss or a foul for no cushion. Even on the less common ocurrence that the called ball is legally pocketed, the miscue will likely rob the shooter of the intended position for the next shot. In the end, it was decided that, between the historical application, the likely unfortunate result for the shooter, and the unintentional nature of the event, that miscues would not be penalized. BCAPL Applied Ruling 1.30/1.32, fifth paragraph applies.
While there is no specific language regarding the lack of a penalty for a miscue in the BCAPL rules, penalties cannot be issued without a basis for doing so. Therefore, a miscue cannot be penalized. Again, remember that under BCAPL rules a miscue is defined as being unintentional. BCAPL 1.34.1 covers the intentional "scoop".
Largely thanks to your inquiries here, look for language clarifying "no penalty" for other miscues and a foul for intentional miscues in the next edition of the BCAPL rules. Also, miscues in association with jump shots will once again be on the table for the 2011 edition of the BCAPL rules, specifically in reference to the practice of using the shaft to execute "jump" shots from extremely close distances.
All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules. :smile:
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx
* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
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A couple of things to consider:
A miscue in and of itself has never been a foul an any cue sport, so far as I know.
I think it is not possible to write an anti-miscue rule that works. I think that if someone tried, they would discover that it caused more problems than it solved, but then I'm not sure it would solve any problems. Can anyone here write a workable "miscues are fouls" rule?
Sorry
but you are wrong Maniac. There is no requirement on which ball or row must be struck in BCA 8 ball. I was playing a tournament, and I hit the cue ball on a break where it went left of the rack, came back off the head end rail with spin and hit the back of the rack, 4 balls went to a rail, and I even made a ball. The room owner and TD scoured the BCA rules, and you can hit any ball, there is no requirement. It was called a legal break. The bad part is that I ended running the rack and winning the match.
but you are wrong Maniac. There is no requirement on which ball or row must be struck in BCA 8 ball. I was playing a tournament, and I hit the cue ball on a break where it went left of the rack, came back off the head end rail with spin and hit the back of the rack, 4 balls went to a rail, and I even made a ball. The room owner and TD scoured the BCA rules, and you can hit any ball, there is no requirement. It was called a legal break. The bad part is that I ended running the rack and winning the match.
There is still a little missing as far as implementation goes. How do we determine whether a miscue occurred on a particular shot?
Bob,
I don't think it is any harder than, say, ball first rail first determinations in 3-cushion. I would say that 99 percent of the time it is obvious.
Mark
Slim Limpy
New member
**********
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