BCA's role? PROFESSIONAL POOL
- Thread starter itsfroze
- Start date
The fact that the number of major worldwide pool events has grown dramatically of late is lost on American pool, but the BCA was part of the process that has grown the game in this way. I believe there are now 26 WPA sanctioned events worldwide, meaning one every two weeks, and the purses are large. Why is this point lost on American pool? Because American pros, as a group, have fallen dramatically as global competitors, winning fewer and fewer titles even here in America, and having a lesser status on the world pool stage than ever before. American pros, with Van Boening and Lombardo the only notable exceptions, have chosen to not even show up to most WPA events played on foreign soil.
Those who say the BCA has done nothing for pro pool are mistaken, although I concur that they don't do enough within America's own borders. Still, the BCA, as America's delgate to the WPA, has helped in establishing new events and make much more money available to pool professionals globally. As one often reads on these AZB forums, Americans, as a group, are not practicing as hard as their Asian and European counterparts, which diminishes their economics for attending overseas events, but that's not the BCA's fault, is it?
There's some common sense from them recently, holding the dollars for the US Open 9 ball event an having the HOF dinner there, its a small start. They're gettin' closer to the play side again/somewhat....since they ended the programs that John Lewis ran for over 14yrs.
Yes, it's a shame that there aren't more WPA sanctioned events in the US.
Nonethless, the argument that foreign stars not getting olympic money don't participate in international events doesn't hold water. Many of them do.
We're on the same page here, for we both agree that the BCA has not done enough for pool within the American borders. A big income is available in pool for the most elite only, and it has always been that way.
Jerry Forsyth
Well-known member
Well,
let's try to get some facts straight:
The OP says:
"They (the BCA) are there to puff their collective chests out and say we are the North American arm of the WPA, but after that expenditure of energy it seems, they fall flat."
NOBODY is puffing their chests out. Where do you come off saying something like that? It is a complete lie. And the BCA put together the WPA/BCA committee that runs the ranking system used to send American players overseas. The BCA would love to do a lot more but the current economy has put a hole in their financial ship that is just now beginning to be patched. What they DO is prevent outlaw organizations from grabbing control of pro pool in America and serving their own purposes rather than the purposes of the game.
OP says:
"Didn't five companies give a thousand dollars a piece (CSI being one of them) toward players travel, and yet at a recent World tournament there were only two U.S. players, Shane and Hunter."
Yes, and AZBilliards was one of the five companies that gave the money. But $5,000 only scratches the surface of what is needed. You cannot start on that journey with only enough gas in the tank to get down the block. The BCA is struggling this very week to come up with ways to continuously fund that effort.
The OP says:
"There was a request on AZ for info on how to get in touch with some of the pros, so that would mean they don't even have basic information on some players, you would think that would be a no brainer, to at least have a way to get in touch with the pro players. I could understand that if the BCA had just taken over, but that is not the case."
Excuse me, but do you EVER know what you are talking about? The BCA had NOTHING to do with that request. That was all me and I have no relationship with the BCA except that AZBilliards maintains the ranking system as a favor to the players and the industry. Pros change phone numbers and email accounts and much contact info is invalidated every year due to this. I had to recharge the information in order that players could be invited overseas.
OP says:
"I read in another post that the BCA pays a lot of money to hold the position they have with the WPA, my question to the BCA is why would you do that, is it just for the glory like the awards you pass out to your members."
Where do you get this GLORY crap? You think there is any glory in dealing with trying to generate an interest in Americans in the game when pool rooms and tournaments are shutting down left and right due to lack of interest?
JEEZ. Does anybody around here ever bother with the truth or is that just too much of a burden?
Now, for the children out there who cannot seem to understand, AZBilliards has NO connection to the BCA other than doing them the favor of handling the rankings. The above replies do not come form the BCA, they come from me. I just get so tired of all the false info out there that sometimes I have to chime in like this to maintain sanity.
let's try to get some facts straight:
The OP says:
"They (the BCA) are there to puff their collective chests out and say we are the North American arm of the WPA, but after that expenditure of energy it seems, they fall flat."
NOBODY is puffing their chests out. Where do you come off saying something like that? It is a complete lie. And the BCA put together the WPA/BCA committee that runs the ranking system used to send American players overseas. The BCA would love to do a lot more but the current economy has put a hole in their financial ship that is just now beginning to be patched. What they DO is prevent outlaw organizations from grabbing control of pro pool in America and serving their own purposes rather than the purposes of the game.
OP says:
"Didn't five companies give a thousand dollars a piece (CSI being one of them) toward players travel, and yet at a recent World tournament there were only two U.S. players, Shane and Hunter."
Yes, and AZBilliards was one of the five companies that gave the money. But $5,000 only scratches the surface of what is needed. You cannot start on that journey with only enough gas in the tank to get down the block. The BCA is struggling this very week to come up with ways to continuously fund that effort.
The OP says:
"There was a request on AZ for info on how to get in touch with some of the pros, so that would mean they don't even have basic information on some players, you would think that would be a no brainer, to at least have a way to get in touch with the pro players. I could understand that if the BCA had just taken over, but that is not the case."
Excuse me, but do you EVER know what you are talking about? The BCA had NOTHING to do with that request. That was all me and I have no relationship with the BCA except that AZBilliards maintains the ranking system as a favor to the players and the industry. Pros change phone numbers and email accounts and much contact info is invalidated every year due to this. I had to recharge the information in order that players could be invited overseas.
OP says:
"I read in another post that the BCA pays a lot of money to hold the position they have with the WPA, my question to the BCA is why would you do that, is it just for the glory like the awards you pass out to your members."
Where do you get this GLORY crap? You think there is any glory in dealing with trying to generate an interest in Americans in the game when pool rooms and tournaments are shutting down left and right due to lack of interest?
JEEZ. Does anybody around here ever bother with the truth or is that just too much of a burden?
Now, for the children out there who cannot seem to understand, AZBilliards has NO connection to the BCA other than doing them the favor of handling the rankings. The above replies do not come form the BCA, they come from me. I just get so tired of all the false info out there that sometimes I have to chime in like this to maintain sanity.
Like any industry organization, the BCA is going to work on behalf of its members. And by "members" I mean the ones who pay the majority of the organization's budget. If much of the organization's budget comes from its trade shows, then the vendors will have a lot of influence too.
There doesn't seem to be any interest in professional pool at the BCA according to its website. From the "About BCA" part of the website:
"In 2004, the BCA re-dedicated itself to achieving a united, growing, prosperous and highly regarded billiard industry through BCA leadership. The BCA enhances the success of its members and promotes the game of billiards through educational programs, the International Billiard & Home Recreation Expo, tournaments and other programs designed to make pool everybody's game.
In 2006, the BCA officially announced the hiring of Rob Johnson as its new chief executive officer. Shortly after joining the BCA staff, Johnson relocated the national office to Denver, Colorado, in May 2007, citing the convenience of the Denver International Airport for regular meeting of the BCA national directors. In addition, the BCA retained the services of Atlanta-based Meeting Expectations, a strategic consulting firm specializing in providing services to national trade associations. Meeting Expectations now provides membership, marketing, financial, IT and administrative services to the BCA.
Johnson said restructuring with Meeting Expectations will allow the BCA to become more responsive to the membership’s desire for marketing-enhanced services such as information on consumer attitudes and opinions relative to the billiard industry, trends within the industry, business improvement tips and seminars, and consumer marketing programs."
So clearly, BCA works for the companies selling pool equipment and selling billiards to the general public.
This isn't a criticism or support of BCA. If I ran it I'd probably do the same. We always moan that the only way to increase tournament purses is to get more viewers (more advertisers/sponsors) and it seems like BCA's strategy is a pretty good long-term strategy toward that goal.
There doesn't seem to be any interest in professional pool at the BCA according to its website. From the "About BCA" part of the website:
"In 2004, the BCA re-dedicated itself to achieving a united, growing, prosperous and highly regarded billiard industry through BCA leadership. The BCA enhances the success of its members and promotes the game of billiards through educational programs, the International Billiard & Home Recreation Expo, tournaments and other programs designed to make pool everybody's game.
In 2006, the BCA officially announced the hiring of Rob Johnson as its new chief executive officer. Shortly after joining the BCA staff, Johnson relocated the national office to Denver, Colorado, in May 2007, citing the convenience of the Denver International Airport for regular meeting of the BCA national directors. In addition, the BCA retained the services of Atlanta-based Meeting Expectations, a strategic consulting firm specializing in providing services to national trade associations. Meeting Expectations now provides membership, marketing, financial, IT and administrative services to the BCA.
Johnson said restructuring with Meeting Expectations will allow the BCA to become more responsive to the membership’s desire for marketing-enhanced services such as information on consumer attitudes and opinions relative to the billiard industry, trends within the industry, business improvement tips and seminars, and consumer marketing programs."
So clearly, BCA works for the companies selling pool equipment and selling billiards to the general public.
This isn't a criticism or support of BCA. If I ran it I'd probably do the same. We always moan that the only way to increase tournament purses is to get more viewers (more advertisers/sponsors) and it seems like BCA's strategy is a pretty good long-term strategy toward that goal.
Ensuring that Americans get funding equal to what they'd get if they lived in other countries is neither the role nor the responsibility of the BCA.
Go to the BCA website and read their ByLaws. The purpose of the BCA is to promote pool with a focus on
1 manufacturers
2 retailers
3 room owners
There is a 4th category that has no voting rights and cannot serve which includes the Professional Pool Players
There are facts and there is bullshit... You choose
1 manufacturers
2 retailers
3 room owners
There is a 4th category that has no voting rights and cannot serve which includes the Professional Pool Players
There are facts and there is bullshit... You choose
I made it clear that they are helping to grow the professional game globally and that these efforts have been quite successful.
The failure of American players to garner their fair share of the fast increasing money offered by WPA events globally, which you inexplicably wish to blame the BCA for, is a sign and result of diminshed American performance in competition.
What is the BCA required/supposed to do? --- help grow the game worldwide and in America. The BCA has, to a great extent, succeeded worldwide, but has, as you correctly suggest, not managed to bring enough WPA events to America. Given the relative disappearance of American pros from even the World Championships, it might just be a pretty tough sell to have any new WPA sanctioned events originate in America.
Your solution is to hand American pros money with which to compete and is representative of the sense of entitlement in American pro pool today. You see the BCA's role as finding the money to do just this, but their role is to grow the professional game, and they've had some measure of success in doing so.
Could the BCA do better? Of course they can, and they strive to do so. I don't much care for the frequent BCA bashing on this forum. If someone or some organization can do better, let them step forward and be counted.
Just as some are sickened by those who post their thoughts about the BCA's involvement in American pool, I am sicked by those who continue to pump up foreign players and espouse that American players suck.
If American players suck on a global scale, it doesn't have a damn thing to do with how often they practice. Rather, it has to do with the support they are given in their own country. by the very organization that's supposed to be doing it. The BCA looks out for industry members' interests, first and foremost.
Some people have business interests in keeping the BCA afloat, but it has more to do with business than it does for supporting American professional pool.
USA, All the Way, I say. I don't care if my country is struggling and scraping the crumbs, I will still root for them and consider them the cream of the crop. The blue-blooded pool purists who enjoy European emotionless robots can root for them by themselves in the corner. If something doesn't change for the American support, then there will be nothing to discuss. Let's move on to playing pool socially and forget professional pool. I'd rather see that than read words of support for other countries by pool purist Americans.
Just as some are sickened by those who post their thoughts about the BCA's involvement in American pool, I am sicked by those who continue to pump up foreign players and espouse that American players suck.
If American players suck on a global scale, it doesn't have a damn thing to do with how often they practice. Rather, it has to do with the support they are given in their own country. by the very organization that's supposed to be doing it. The BCA looks out for industry members' interests, first and foremost.
Some people have business interests in keeping the BCA afloat, but it has more to do with business than it does for supporting American professional pool.
USA, All the Way, I say. I don't care if my country is struggling and scraping the crumbs, I will still root for them and consider them the cream of the crop. The blue-blooded pool purists who enjoy European emotionless robots can root for them by themselves in the corner. If something doesn't change for the American support, then there will be nothing to discuss. Let's move on to playing pool socially and forget professional pool. I'd rather see that than read words of support for other countries by pool purist Americans.
Only part I have to disagree with. With the exception of the top American players, the work ethic of European and Asian players is so much higher. It goes deeper than pool though.
The ethic is higher because they have their own country's support as well as the American blue-blooded pool purists' support. When your own country's fans start bad-mouthing your team, it speaks volumes. In some circles, they're called "traitors."
Should the American contingency of players work their butts off to support the BCA's industry members, letting them get fat while they go broke? There's no money for American players. They can't even do that. The opportunities to succeed are only afforded two Americans, both of whom are sponsored and have their expenses paid. All others are left out to dry.
USA, ALL THE WAY! I will root for them always. It's not their fault that the BCA hung them out to dry, while the industry members' buddies support foreign players, rooting for them at events instead of their own Americans. It's disgusting to even think about. I'm appalled.
Sir,
You seem to have made this statement twice already, which would mean that you know what you are talking about.
Could you, in this case, bring some facts to support this thesis which sounds so enigmatic I could not help but to ask these questions:
(EDIT: regarding recent years)
How exactly the BCA is helping to grow the professional game globally ???
and,
How the BCA and, to what great extent has the BCA, succeeded with this worldwide ???
Are there any facts to support these???
Last edited:
As far as I know the BCA doesn't do anything for the game outside the USA. Other than maintain a membership in the WPA that is which probably means that they pay some amount for that.
In China I think that the CBSA does pay some expenses for players who go to international events as invited players and they do not pay expenses for players who choose to go through the qualifiers. I could be 100% wrong.
In Taiwan the association there has some support for the top players but it's minimal. Mr. Tu who runs the Taiwanese association tries to arrange sponsorship deals to help the players.
In the Phillipines I don't think that the association does anything for the players as far as monetary support.
In Europe I don't think that the players receive much if any monetary support.
The BCA doesn't have any money. In case most of you missed it since 2008 billiard equipment sales have tanked. Since the BCA gets it's revenue from memberships when memberships go way so does then money. Only in the past year have things started to get better with sales starting to come back.
There are a lot of things that the BCA has done wrong in my opinion. I have been quite vocal about what I think those things have been. I also know that there are things that have happened in the BCA that are not well known which have greatly detracted from the mission, both the previous one where they were dedicated to promoting the game, and the new one where they are dedicated to supporting their commericial members.
I won't get into the things told to me in confidence except to say that it wasn't pretty. With that said the BCA is not a player organization any longer. That is not the role they want to play as far as I know. Still they are the North American member of the WPA and as such they are charged with deciding who gets the invites to the major WPA events from North America. So my advice is that we should just accept it and move on.
The players themselves are responsible for knowing the criteria and adhering to it. Since Jerry said they maintain the rank list then THAT is the list that is valid for WPA events and none other.
Other than something to discuss I don't know why we bother caring about what the BCA does or does not do anymore. Somehow players from around the world manage to handle their business just fine and get to the events that are meaningful for them.
I will say this. If I were the WPA then I would try to make it a requirement that every continental member hold at least ONE WPA event per year. That would be five or six world class events each year for sure and certainly several more on top of that. But as Ian Anderson told me, the WPA really doesn't have the power to make anyone do anything.
In China I think that the CBSA does pay some expenses for players who go to international events as invited players and they do not pay expenses for players who choose to go through the qualifiers. I could be 100% wrong.
In Taiwan the association there has some support for the top players but it's minimal. Mr. Tu who runs the Taiwanese association tries to arrange sponsorship deals to help the players.
In the Phillipines I don't think that the association does anything for the players as far as monetary support.
In Europe I don't think that the players receive much if any monetary support.
The BCA doesn't have any money. In case most of you missed it since 2008 billiard equipment sales have tanked. Since the BCA gets it's revenue from memberships when memberships go way so does then money. Only in the past year have things started to get better with sales starting to come back.
There are a lot of things that the BCA has done wrong in my opinion. I have been quite vocal about what I think those things have been. I also know that there are things that have happened in the BCA that are not well known which have greatly detracted from the mission, both the previous one where they were dedicated to promoting the game, and the new one where they are dedicated to supporting their commericial members.
I won't get into the things told to me in confidence except to say that it wasn't pretty. With that said the BCA is not a player organization any longer. That is not the role they want to play as far as I know. Still they are the North American member of the WPA and as such they are charged with deciding who gets the invites to the major WPA events from North America. So my advice is that we should just accept it and move on.
The players themselves are responsible for knowing the criteria and adhering to it. Since Jerry said they maintain the rank list then THAT is the list that is valid for WPA events and none other.
Other than something to discuss I don't know why we bother caring about what the BCA does or does not do anymore. Somehow players from around the world manage to handle their business just fine and get to the events that are meaningful for them.
I will say this. If I were the WPA then I would try to make it a requirement that every continental member hold at least ONE WPA event per year. That would be five or six world class events each year for sure and certainly several more on top of that. But as Ian Anderson told me, the WPA really doesn't have the power to make anyone do anything.
Believe in 2004 the BCA sold its pool league to Mark Griffin (BCAPL). Wasn't that done to return the organization back to being only industry support and promotion? The change divested BCA from amateur pool directly. BCA didn't offload being the WPA representative for pool in the US. My guess is it was done to keep them front and center for recognition as the US Olympic representative if the game ever gained the status of an Olympic sport. Now that's where the money is (for them at least)! Again JMHO.
Lyn
Lyn
You know, Lyn, I never thought of that, but you bring up a very valid point. :smile:
The BCA is kind of like a dog peeing on the WPA, marking its territory for future use. :grin-square: