Be careful of counterfeits

[JB Cases]

Rep to you JB.

As being one of the winners of these counterfeits, can you tell me how to get the crappy interior out and put in yours? Other than the shitty interior and crappy dye job on the case I won, its not horrible.

Sorry but the last thing I want to see is my interior in one of these cases. If you want what makes my interior great then take the tubes out and replace the liner with foam backed fabric. Put some extra foam rubber around the inside where the tubes stop to the top of the case and glue the liner down. Then reinsert the newly lined tubes, secure the bottom and you are good to go.

Unless your case is different than the ones shown by others I would say that the tooling is horrible. Tooling should be deep and sharp not shallow and indistinct. For the dye problem you can always dye it black. There are plenty of tutorials all over the web for how to redye leather. Everything you need is available from Tandy Leather Factory online or through a local store.

 

[MahnaMahna]

This nonsense needs to stop or anyone who calls my cases copies and fakes needs to start condemning every cue maker who puts points and diamonds into their cues. That means no butterfly points, no pointy points, no diamonds, no dots, no dash rings, no rings, etc.... because SOMEONE else did all those elements first.

Anyway, in a world where people honestly think it's possible for a half-black man to become President of the USA without being a natural born citizen I should not be surprised that some people can't see the differences in cue cases. So I will end this rant with the knowledge that everyone has their own view. Here is mine to counter yours.

So without me being my usual insulting self while asking this question with the hopes of you not being your usual insulting self back, I would ask:

-Why even use the J Flowers name? You are showing pics as examples of how different your work is to the originals, but then say that this is similar to cuemakers using points and diamonds on cues. You say you are just using the "style" and that style is synonymous to cue makers using points and diamonds on cues, but there are not any cuemakers that use a name directly derived from another maker's like the J Flowers name is.

-Everyone has their own view is correct, but it would seem you want to be known as a respected cue maker within the industry. From what I have seen and heard, your cases are top quality. But taking what could have been a good post using detailed examples of your cases vs. J.EF cases and then throwing in this thing with Obama being half black? Dude....

Anyways, I am in an exceptionally good (drunk) mood tonight, so I hope you are doing well JB. I will be back to my usual insulting and demeaning self tomorrow and will make up for this one.

 

[Atlatlien]

JB Cases just body-slammed this thread! :cool

I really like my Sterling 2x3, Mr. Barton!

 

[JB Cases]

So without me being my usual insulting self while asking this question with the hopes of you not being your usual insulting self back, I would ask:

-Why even use the J Flowers name? You are showing pics as examples of how different your work is to the originals, but then say that this is similar to cuemakers using points and diamonds on cues. You say you are just using the "style" and that style is synonymous to cue makers using points and diamonds on cues, but there are not any cuemakers that use a name directly derived from another maker's like the J Flowers name is.

-Everyone has their own view is correct, but it would seem you want to be known as a respected cue maker within the industry. From what I have seen and heard, your cases are top quality. But taking what could have been a good post using detailed examples of your cases vs. J.EF cases and then throwing in this thing with Obama being half black? Dude....

Anyways, I am in an exceptionally good (drunk) mood tonight, so I hope you are doing well JB. I will be back to my usual insulting and demeaning self tomorrow and will make up for this one.

I am known as a respected case maker. My work speaks for itself. The Instroke brand is now 20 years old and still going strong. The cases we made over the last four years provide "inspiration" for plenty of other makers to improve their own products as seen by the amount of elements from our work that they have adopted. My "protection first" philosophy resonates with consumers and has forced other case makers to think about it more and caused some of them adopt similar interiors as we make if not just outright using our interiors.

The point about Obama is that it's ludicrous to believe that in current America a half-black man could be a candidate for president without the government, his own party, and the opposition already vetting and digging into every possible aspect of his life. But still people persist in actually believing that he is not a natural born American. So why should I expect that anyone will take ten minutes to educate themselves on copyright and trademark law to understand that what I make is neither a copy nor an infringement?

The reason I deliberately chose to make the brand "J.Flowers" is because I did not want to use some other brand name, which could have been anything, told the Jay Flowers story of inspiration and then seen someone else, probably a Chinese or Taiwanese company just simply make up a brand name called Jay Flowers or Flowers after I did all the work to make the connection to case history and Jay's contribution to this craft.

I knew that this choice would cause controversy. But the controversy is limited to very few people who actually knew of the "Flowers" (J.EF Q Cases). Everyone else either forgot those cases existed or never knew of them in the first place. In my eyes the benefits of protecting the "Flowers" name in connection to cue cases outweighs the negative "bad taste" that some people have due to their own moral compass or more often due to their ignorance of the actual law on the subject. Most people have a very very limited knowledge of what the law actually is governing brand names and so they cast me in a bad light because they think I am somehow breaking the law.

In any event the fact is that through my popularizing of the "Flowers" name we have been able to uncover more facts and history about the cases which Jay Flowers sold and which we NOW know that a large portion of them were built by Nora Van Horn in her Tampa shop.

And we (Chris Tate) and I have been contacted by Jay's daughter and Nora Van Horn's grandson to fill in gaps we didn't about. So to me the net gain here for pool fans and collectors far outweighs the mostly ignorance-fueled negativity that a few people express over my choice of brand name.

Let's all be very honest for a moment. I could have named this line of cases ANYTHING I wanted to and not mentioned Jay Flowers at all and they would have sold just as well if not better. Choosing to brand them "J.Flowers" was a personal choice of mine as a way to protect the name in the best I know how as well as to honor what I see as a great contribution to cue case making in the best way I know how.

 

[slyfox]

JB.... I have owned 2 of the J Flowers Tribute cases.
They are without a doubt a great solid sturdy case that I feel truly protects the contents and look great too.

I truly believe that the genuine tribute cases, as JB said, are a tribute to great craftsmanship and honest quality. The knock-offs are out there because JB made a great case and people want to try to copy it. I know from the 2 genuine flowers tribute cases I have owned that JB does great work and it is a tribute to a fine case.

The product speaks for itself. :thumbup: for JB.
Oh yeah.... welcome back.

 

[CarlB]

While I do not know Mr. Barton personally, I have spoken with him through forums and emails several times. I can tell you that any conversation with him is a honor and his products are superior because of the passion that goes into each case he makes.

I can not wait until I have a case that I am proud to show off from JB. I am actually happier than I can express that I didn't win one of these pathetic knock offs, but that I know I will be receiving an authentic JB Case. John Barton cases are superior in quality and craftsmanship which is one of the reasons I was responsive to these fake cases.

Oh, Hello, Mr. Barton...Good to see you back on AZB.

Carl

 

[headmuses]

I filed disputes on PP noting the item was never received and left a note that the seller attempted to sell me counterfeited products.

I have also filed a dispute claim against tasaddicts with Paypal claiming he sold me an imitation counterfeit product that is trademarked.

:angry:

 

[gunzby]

John I hate to hear about people counterfeiting cases that you are known for. With this in mind look on the bright side that you are well known for quality so much that counterfeiters took notice.

It's like Weird Al doing one of your songs.

On a side note I almost got on one of those raffles, but decided against it because of a funny feeling and because it wasn't a 3x6. On another side note people love those cases so much that anywhere I check is on back order.

 

[mattb]

Jb case

One of the reasons I got in the raffle was because I was looking for one of these cases but no one had one. Glad I did not enter more of them than I did. I have since had to order something else, because they are still back ordered everywhere I looked.

 

[JB Cases]

Oh Monstermash, aren't you childish? I gave you negative rep for your first post where you trashed Matt Carter for warning people about these cases and this criminal. In that post you admonished Matt by asking him IF he had contacted Tasaddicts before posting the warning, basically an assumption on your part that he hadn't. You went off about how we were throwing poor Tasaddicts "under a bus" without proof and on and on.

Then, when Matt is shown to be right and Tasaddicts shown to be a thief do you stand up and apologize? Not at all. You slink away.

You didn't even follow your own advice and PM Matt Carter and ask him about how he knows that the cases were counterfeit before you criticized him. No, you just made an assumption that we were just torturing poor Jason Lee with false accusations of selling fake goods.

And then, when I posted my thoughts you had every opportunity to respond and apologize to Matt, myself, and the rest of the board for your meddling troublemaker attitude. You wasted that opportunity.

So, I neg repped you.

You then responded with this PM:

Hey, - Today, 12:38 AM
Didn't they ban you because you can't get along with others and can't keep you mouth shut?

Thanks for the neg rep. I have been looking into a new case but you're off the list now. You should consider taking a class in common sense. You don't run a business by saying anything negative about anyone.

And my response was:

You're welcome. Anytime you make an asinine post that I feel is deserving of red rep then that's what you will get. How does your hero look now?

And please don't lie to yourself. I have already been told that you don't want to buy from me. And even if you did who says I want to sell to you? As for your ideas about running a business I guess you don't get out much since business people say negative things about their competitors and other people all the time. So spare me your lecture ok and thanks for the heads up that I don't need to look for an order from someone called Monstermash.

I know you don't like me but you could at least be enough of a decent person to apologize to Matt Carter for your shitty comments defending Jason Lee. At the very least you could have followed your own advice and PM'ed Matt to ask him how he knows the cases were counterfeit and why he felt he had enough evidence to make it public. But no, you had to jump in and slam Sterling didn't you?

So I will be surprised if you do the right thing. If you do then I will give you good rep for it.

And your response, the really childish part, is that you sent me negative rep with this line

"neg back for you jackass"

So let's see, you attacked the owner of the brand over a warning he posted to consumers about counterfeits being sold. Then you attack me for speaking about the whole situation. Not once do you recant your attacks or apologize or admit that you were out of line.

And you presume to tell me how to run my business and live my life?

I wonder how you would feel if Jason Lee had started selling knockoffs of your beloved PFD cues. Want me to send him some complete with logo?

 

[JB Cases]

John I hate to hear about people counterfeiting cases that you are known for. With this in mind look on the bright side that you are well known for quality so much that counterfeiters took notice.

It's like Weird Al doing one of your songs.

On a side note I almost got on one of those raffles, but decided against it because of a funny feeling and because it wasn't a 3x6. On another side note people love those cases so much that anywhere I check is on back order.

We are getting ready to make a whole new batch. I am going down to the factory next week to babysit the production. There will be two new improvements to the next batch which will make life a lot easier for the user.

The bright side of all this is that it shows people the downside to buying knockoffs and counterfeits. Having the side by side comparisons really brings it out what's at stake for the consumer. Think about it this way, if the people doing the copying don't care enough to do a good job on the outside that you can see then how crappy is the interior likely to be?

Today I had another case in my hands built by someone who doesn't care at all about protecting the cue. The owner's cues are all scratched up and it's because the liner is made of some weird material that feels like sandpaper.

So at least now I have some concrete evidence to point people towards which shows them why buying quality and buying from reputable and verified sources is better than buying knockoffs. Granted in this situation it was hard to tell for most of you. BUT I was alerted to the fact that these cases were not quite right from a raffle buyer. He was sharp enough to see the differences and ask for verification. And so I think that the lesson for all of you is to verify anything being offered for sale on this or any other forum. It only takes an email or two with a link to the distributor of the item to get some sort of verification.

Anyway, thank you SO MUCH for the kind words and the support. Call Sterling or your favorite J.Flowers dealer and reserve the case you want now from the upcoming batch.

 

[JB Cases]

Last couple things:

1. Predator is highly counterfeited in China. So beware of ANYTHING being sold through and Asian outlet that is listed as a Predator product. When I say counterfeited then I mean not only are the existing models copied and branded as Predator but there are cues and cases which Predator doesn't even make which are branded as Predator.

2. Joss, Schon and McDermott are counterfeited with the designs and logos being ripped off. So again beware of any Asian dealer selling those brands and do your homework. A simple email to any of these companies is generally enough to get the information you need.

3. This whole incident goes to show that even someone with a good reputation can be selling counterfeit and knockoffs in a fraudulent and criminal way.

Frankly I found the posts by some people who bashed Sterling and Matt Carter to be repugnant at best. This is a record of a private message exchange initiated by Monstermash with me - http://forums.azbilliards.com/blog.php?b=521

In my mind it's illustrates how quickly people are to jump in to topics like this with no purpose other than to stir the shit and drain energy from the real issues. And how they are unwilling to stand up and apologize when shown to be wrong.

I will continue to find out how to prosecute people like Jason Lee and others who infringe on trademarks and engage in fraudulent, criminal deception. When I have that information then I will share with every company who needs it. I am not against copying. Copying is how things continue to be innovated. I am against fraud, identity theft, deception, corruption, thievery, ignorance and generally against people who decide to be assholes for no reason other than to antagonize.

Lastly I am considering options for how to give all the raffle participants some sort of value for their participation. You all got into these raffles because you were excited at the prospect of getting a well built case. I currently have so many backorders that I can't really even consider just giving up new cases to be raffled off. Next week I will be at Jiasen and I will ask them and Sterling what they suggest. We don't have to do anything but as I said earlier I feel as though we neglected to do our job and catch these cases sooner.

So hopefully I can come up with something positive to alleviate the pain of getting defrauded a little bit.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

So hopefully I can come up with something positive to alleviate the pain of getting defrauded a little bit.

I have an idea. Why not send each participant 2 auto close latches from a Sterling cue case.

You're such a helpful guy JB. Always willing to help AZ members out when your name is in lights.

Welcome back anyway, I knew you'd be on this thread like a bum on a hot dog.

BTW, posting private PMs is still kind of classless.

PS - I won't be apologizing for this post either, so don't bother demanding one.

BTW, just so you know, the repair for the Sterling case cost me a total of $75. The thumb turn latches are a 100% improvement
over the auto close.

Anyway, I have to say thanks for at least telling me how to take the case apart, otherwise the repair probably wouldn't have been possible.

At least the next time I decide to spend $1000 on cases, I'll know where to, or should I say, where not to go.

 

[JB Cases]

I have an idea. Why not send each participant 2 auto close latches from a Sterling cue case.

You're such a helpful guy JB. Always willing to help AZ members out when your name is in lights.

Welcome back anyway, I knew you'd be on this thread like a bum on a hot dog.

BTW, posting private PMs is still kind of classless.

PS - I won't be apologizing for this post either, so don't bother demanding one.

BTW, just so you know, the repair for the Sterling case cost me a total of $75. The thumb turn latches are a 100% improvement
over the auto close.

Anyway, I have to say thanks for at least telling me how to take the case apart, otherwise the repair probably wouldn't have been possible.

At least the next time I decide to spend $1000 on cases, I'll know where to, or should I say, where not to go.

I am sorry I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't make any cases with the autoclose latches. Any cases that Sterling carries with those latches were part of their lineup before I came on board and are made by someone else. Maybe some of the Jiasen MasterPiece cases had those latches on the pockets but I certainly would have helped you out if you had emailed me about those. I just fixed one for a friend of Kelly Fisher's last week and delivered it to Kelly at the Beijing Open.

Did you contact me and not get any help? If so then I apologize. I don't remember any posts or emails from you. I help out a lot of people in private.

As for posting the PMs that's my choice. If someone feels that they have the right to debase me and those I work with with not one bit of remorse even after they were proven wrong then they can not expect any grace from me. Of course I was going to be all over this thread. It concerns my brand and my livelihood. Or do you think perhaps I should not say anything when someone tries to steal my brand?

And please refresh my memory but haven't you been really critical of me this past year or so? Why should I want to help you or care about you in any way when all you do is semi-stalk me and make disparaging comments. You have never bought a case from me and if you bought one from Sterling or their dealers then I am 100% positive that they would have taken care of you.

Edit: I found you,

Terry Ashton
.
S4S2E3
***************

Yeah I spaced sending you some parts for the knockoffs of my old designs that you own. However you could have emailed me a reminder. And you didn't spend $1000 on those cases so stop pretending that you did.

 

[solar]

Tas, You're are a f*%&(#^ disgrace to your country. . I have a good mind to put your name and address here to start a class action lawsuit, and I seriously believe the Singapore authorities will be more than willing to pursue the matter; to protect the nation's integrity. :angry:
Refund the money you knowing cheated by raffling off fake goods....

 

[jetlau3]

welcome back John

In my personal experience, you are a real bonus to this forum and the pool community.

 

[JB Cases]

Tas, You're are a f*%&(#^ disgrace to your country. . I have a good mind to put your name and address here to start a class action lawsuit, and I seriously believe the Singapore authorities will be more than willing to pursue the matter; to protect the nation's integrity. :angry:
Refund the money you knowing cheated by raffling off fake goods....

If you have his name and address feel free to send it to me in a private message or email and I will make sure that the police in Singapore receive a report. And I will forward it to every person who got in the raffles so that they can file reports with their local police. Filing locally won't get much done for these small amounts BUT it is a record on file that can be called upon by other agencies.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

If you have his name and address feel free to send it to me in a private message or email and I will make sure that the police in Singapore receive a report. And I will forward it to every person who got in the raffles so that they can file reports with their local police. Filing locally won't get much done for these small amounts BUT it is a record on file that can be called upon by other agencies.

Sounds like a little pay back.:thumbup:

 

[JB Cases]

Sounds like a little pay back.:thumbup:

Only justice. Do the crime then do the time. Tasaddicts had every opportunity to make it right with all the good folks here. Now he can explain it to the police in his country where they cane people for spitting gum on the street.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Only justice. Do the crime then do the time. Tasaddicts had every opportunity to make it right with all the good folks here. Now he can explain it to the police in his country where they cane people for spitting gum on the street.

Singapore is know for being tough on criminals, but then the street are safe to walk, and crime is low because of their tought on crime policies.

Caning is a good punishment, may the USA should try it.