be honest

A

AceHigh

Banned
I know the subject of pocket size has been brought up numerous times, and this question relates to said subject.

We all know that the women play on easy equipment, and break and runs are very common in the women's TV matches.

Would they be so frequent if they played on the same type of equipment that the men played on at the WPC?

I only ask because I'm watching the rerun of Vivian Vs. Kelly F. and Vivian has hit three shots so bad, but they still found their way into the pocket.
 
AceHigh said:
I know the subject of pocket size has been brought up numerous times, and this question relates to said subject.

We all know that the women play on easy equipment, and break and runs are very common in the women's TV matches.

Would they be so frequent if they played on the same type of equipment that the men played on at the WPC?

I only ask because I'm watching the rerun of Vivian Vs. Kelly F. and Vivian has hit three shots so bad, but they still found their way into the pocket.
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure that this happens because of pocket size as it does new cloth. I've seen the same thing on the mens tours largely because they are always playing on new cloth which has a tendency to be a little more forgiving on shots because of slide on shots that hit a little up the rail.
 
The pockets for the womens tv tables are HUGE! I realize with new cloth, balls will slide more and aids in balls going in the pockets easier, but everytime I watch a womens match, they hit some shots so bad, that the ball will wobble in the pocket then drop in. If the pockets were 4.5 inches or less, those balls would not drop. I think the reason, why the pockets are so big, is because the depth of talent on the professional women tour is not there compared to the mens events..
 
AceHigh said:
We all know that the women play on easy equipment, and break and runs are very common in the women's TV matches.
.
Click to expand...

We know that?

TV is there to entertain and make money. And not necessarily in that order.

If 6 inch pockets would make more money for them then we would see 6 inch pockets.

Why worry about the size of the pockets - they are the same for all players.

Since it is working for the women, maybe the men should start doing what is working, and quit fighting it. And if the larger pockets would result in more run outs maybe that is what the public wants to see. More runouts by the men. I personally would rather see a pro break and run then jaw the ball because of a tight pocket. And maybe switch to a bowling format where the first player breaks once and then each player breaks twice from then on.

What is meant by larger pockets? 5 1/2"? Larger than 5 1/2"? Softer pocket cushions to accept more balls? Rounded slate edges at the pockets to easily accept the balls?

Since the WPBA pays out to any woman who wins one match maybe the men should go to that format. First place in Peoria is $16,000 and just winning one match gets the player $700. Not bad. And 8 matches are going to be televised. Seems to me the WPBA is doing something right.

Leave the tight angled, tripple shimmed pockets to the gamblers.

And I never hear someone complain about "easy pockets" when their favorite woman player breaks and runs out.

Jake
 
jjinfla said:
We know that?

TV is there to entertain and make money. And not necessarily in that order.

If 6 inch pockets would make more money for them then we would see 6 inch pockets.

Why worry about the size of the pockets - they are the same for all players.

Since it is working for the women, maybe the men should start doing what is working, and quit fighting it. And if the larger pockets would result in more run outs maybe that is what the public wants to see. More runouts by the men. I personally would rather see a pro break and run then jaw the ball because of a tight pocket. And maybe switch to a bowling format where the first player breaks once and then each player breaks twice from then on.

What is meant by larger pockets? 5 1/2"? Larger than 5 1/2"? Softer pocket cushions to accept more balls? Rounded slate edges at the pockets to easily accept the balls?

Since the WPBA pays out to any woman who wins one match maybe the men should go to that format. First place in Peoria is $16,000 and just winning one match gets the player $700. Not bad. And 8 matches are going to be televised. Seems to me the WPBA is doing something right.

Leave the tight angled, tripple shimmed pockets to the gamblers.

And I never hear someone complain about "easy pockets" when their favorite woman player breaks and runs out.

Jake
Click to expand...

Why should the pockets be tighter? Because the players should have to work for their money. Any of the top 10 women on the WPBA are capable of breaking and running on those gigantic pockets.
 
Part of it is the same reason they race to 11 in early rounds and 7 in TV rounds...you have a 1 hour show.

I don't even know what the size is on my table at home? What is standard? I have a Kasson Orion.

LWW
 
adapting to the table

I only ask because I'm watching the rerun of Vivian Vs. Kelly F. and Vivian has hit three shots so bad, but they still found their way into the pocket.
Click to expand...


Ace,

You didn't see Vivian hit bad unless she failed to get position on the cue ball. She adapted to the shot needed to make the ball. I used to shoot nine foot snooker tables with tiny pockets and curved corners that kicked the balls back out to warm up to shoot seven foot bar tables with pockets the size of the top of five gallon buckets. I often aimed shots into places that would have been a miss on the nine foot table to position the cue ball a little better on a seven foot table. It wasn't bad shooting, just making full use of the table I was playing on.

Most of the time the cream will rise to the top in the longer race regardless of table unless it is a truly terrible local table and one player knows all of it's flaws. A race to seven on an easy table could be a matter of luck without the alternating breaks. Of course with alternating breaks the opening lag can be the most important shot in the game.

Bottom line, playing wide or tight pockets, I think there would be few changes, if any, as to who played on TV.

Hu
 
WPBA equipment goes by BCA Equipment Specs

The women pros tournaments goes by the BCA equipment
Specs which state:

POCKET OPENINGS & MEASUREMENTS (Cloth covered rails):
Pocket openings are measured from tip to tip of the opposing cushion noses where direction changes into the pocket. This is called the mouth.

* Corner Pocket: Mouth Between 4 7/8" minimum to 5 1/8" maximum
* Side Pocket: Mouth Between 5 3/8" minimum to 5 5/8" maximum
* The angle at the corner pocket entrance on each side of the pocket is 142o (±1o).
* The angle at the side pocket entrance on each side of the pocket is 103o (± 2o).
* Vertical Pocket Angle: 12o minimum to 15o maximum.
* Shelf: The shelf is measured from the center of the imaginary line that goes from one side of the mouth to the other where the nose of the cushion changes direction to the center of the vertical cut of the slate pocket radius.
* Corner Pocket:
o 1 5/8" minimum to 1 7/8" maximum
o Side Pocket: 0" minimum to 3/8" maximum
* Drop Point Slate Radius: The pocket radius measured from the vertical cut of the slate to the playing surface.
* Drop Point Slate Radius 1/8" radius min. to 1/4" radius max.
 
AceHigh said:
I know the subject of pocket size has been brought up numerous times, and this question relates to said subject.

Would they be so frequent if they played on the same type of equipment that the men played on at the WPC? QUOTE]

One would think that pocket size should matter a great deal. However, you only see the better players winning the Bar Box Tournaments & the pockets are wider on that type of table, plus there is no pocket shelf. These results might dismiss the possibility of some players being able to compete against higher skilled players, by competing on wide pocket Pool Tables.
Click to expand...
 
LWW said:
Part of it is the same reason they race to 11 in early rounds and 7 in TV rounds...you have a 1 hour show.
LWW
Click to expand...
I'm not positive on this but I'm pretty sure the women race to 9 normally, do they not? The men usually race to 11 but their race is longer because they play faster.
 
AceHigh said:
I know the subject of pocket size has been brought up numerous times, and this question relates to said subject.

We all know that the women play on easy equipment, and break and runs are very common in the women's TV matches.

Would they be so frequent if they played on the same type of equipment that the men played on at the WPC?

I only ask because I'm watching the rerun of Vivian Vs. Kelly F. and Vivian has hit three shots so bad, but they still found their way into the pocket.
Click to expand...
I just watched the match you are talking about and she did hit those shot terribly, getting badly out of line on the first one at least but the shot went in. It is embarrasing to professional pool. Those shots would have no chance on your average bar table unless it too has brand new cloth on the rails. Vivian, and the rest of them, are terrific players and would still run out with much tighter pockets. Anything bigger than 4 1/2 inches is huge. They should be 4 inches, straight cut parallel jaw pockets.

It's the same situation for the men.

unknownpro

unknownpro
 
unknownpro said:
I just watched the match you are talking about and she did hit those shot terribly, getting badly out of line on the first one at least but the shot went in. It is embarrasing to professional pool. Those shots would have no chance on your average bar table unless it too has brand new cloth on the rails. Vivian, and the rest of them, are terrific players and would still run out with much tighter pockets. Anything bigger than 4 1/2 inches is huge. They should be 4 inches, straight cut parallel jaw pockets.

It's the same situation for the men.

unknownpro

unknownpro
Click to expand...
I dont know why you think its embarrasing to pro pool that the pockets are large.If I had my guess which I do,most people who are watching probably wouldn't even know that there is different pocket sizes.The womens pro tour right now is really sucessfull unlike the mens which almost has no tour.i would bet Allison against most men on any size table.
 
bobroberts said:
I dont know why you think its embarrasing to pro pool that the pockets are large.If I had my guess which I do,most people who are watching probably wouldn't even know that there is different pocket sizes.The womens pro tour right now is really sucessfull unlike the mens which almost has no tour.i would bet Allison against most men on any size table.
Click to expand...


That's a joke. Put Allison up against any of the top 10 men on the men's tour playing a 10 ahead set, even, and I'll give you 6 to 1 on the money. Allison is one of my favorite players, male or female, and I hate to say it, but she would get slaughtered.
 
bobroberts said:
I dont know why you think its embarrasing to pro pool that the pockets are large.If I had my guess which I do,most people who are watching probably wouldn't even know that there is different pocket sizes.The womens pro tour right now is really sucessfull unlike the mens which almost has no tour.i would bet Allison against most men on any size table.
Click to expand...

It's embarrasing because anybody can see that those shots would not go on their local bar table. One shot was 3/4 of a diamond off the side rail just above the side pocket and hit 1 1/2 diamonds from the far corner and fell in easily, hit with some speed.

Karen Corr has proven that she can win against the men, Jean Balukas placed in men's pro events, and I'm sure Allison and Jeanette and Vivian and others can do well also, in open tournaments.

The women's tour has been the only real success story in pool for a long time now, but they have not grown as much as one would hope. My point is that these ladies are much more talented than is being shown on tv now, partly due to crappy equipment. The men are in the same boat when they are on tv.

Back Allison against most men, sure. Against most men on the tour? Better know what you're getting into.

unknownpro
 
People keep saying tighten up the pockets. Make pool harder. It is too easy. I will tell you what tighter pockets will make pool. Boring to watch. Who wants to watch people calling themselves pros missing shot we know we can make on our home tables. The public will think pros stink and not take into consideration the pockets are super tight. Also those who think the old ten foot tables had pockets that were super tight, they are wrong. I read a quote in a 1960's book that said the ten foot tables from earlier that century had 4 & 7/8" pockets and the first nine footers had 5.5" pockets. Now I agree 5.5" is huge and I have played on one of those old tables. But 5" became the standard. The pockets that used to be considered tight were only 1/8" tighter than the standard home tables are today. Tighten up and make it to where people have to baby balls in the pocket and you will see one safe after another. Open the pockets up to 5", slow the cloth down some and power pool will make a come back and pool will be fun to watch again.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
 
cueman said:
People keep saying tighten up the pockets. Make pool harder. It is too easy. I will tell you what tighter pockets will make pool. Boring to watch. Who wants to watch people calling themselves pros missing shot we know we can make on our home tables. The public will think pros stink and not take into consideration the pockets are super tight. Also those who think the old ten foot tables had pockets that were super tight, they are wrong. I read a quote in a 1960's book that said the ten foot tables from earlier that century had 4 & 7/8" pockets and the first nine footers had 5.5" pockets. Now I agree 5.5" is huge and I have played on one of those old tables. But 5" became the standard. The pockets that used to be considered tight were only 1/8" tighter than the standard home tables are today. Tighten up and make it to where people have to baby balls in the pocket and you will see one safe after another. Open the pockets up to 5", slow the cloth down some and power pool will make a come back and pool will be fun to watch again.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
Click to expand...
Correctly tightened pockets don't make you baby balls in, they keep you from doing that because there is no advantage to slow rolling a ball. And they're not going to miss any more than they do now, but the ones they miss - will miss.

unknownpro
 
All I know is......when the pressure is on - the pockets get smaller NO matter what size they are.

Allison, Karen, Kelly Fisher, and others play on tighter equipment than the BCA specs and run out plenty of time.

Does anyone want to bet against them playing the nineball ghost on 4.5inch pockets?

I'll bet anyone on this board $1000 that Kelly Fisher will beat the 9-ball ghost in a ten ahead set - break, ball in hand, all day every day.

John
 
unknownpro said:
Correctly tightened pockets don't make you baby balls in, they keep you from doing that because there is no advantage to slow rolling a ball. And they're not going to miss any more than they do now, but the ones they miss - will miss.

unknownpro
Click to expand...


I agree, also I disagree with pool becoming boring because of tight pockets. In golf everyone knows the pro courses are much more difficult which includes tighter fairways, faster greens and tougher pin placements. It is suppose to be this way. In pool they should let viewers know that the players are playing on tougher equipment as well.

In addition to pockets, someone needs to invent a cloth that plays the same all the time. New cloth is just to easy to pocket balls and has too much slide in it which makes cue ball control somewhat ridiculous at times.
 
There is no question that if the WPBA tightened up the pockets there would be less run outs. I doubt if they would want to show professionals not being able to run out regularly.

Another important consideration and I am sure the designers of the Women's Tour looked at this- Which is more exciting to watch?
1. To see a poorly hit shot, on very wide pockets, knowing that the shot will have a chance of wobbling its way into the hole.
2. To see a poorly hit shot, on very tight pockets, knowing that it never will have a chance of falling into the hole.

Which do you think is the best business decision?
JoeyA
 
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