Been playing a monster

[Gmanpoke]

The fundamental question here is "Do you want to win or do you want to become a better player?"

The answer to both questions is the same.

You can learn from watching better players and what they do. You can not improve by playing them.

To improve you need to do drills and practice. It's not as much fun but it pays off in the end.

Winning is a different story. You win by matching up properly BEFORE you play.

Guess who is improving when you are playing Chip and he is winning? HE is!

Bill Stroud

Thanks for your thoughts and contributions to this Thread. I don't mean to be disrespectful. But if all I want to do is win, I could do that without ever improving. I could always just keep beating the crap out of lesser players. There are plenty of guys I could beat in the pool halls, bars, and leagues without ever improving from where I am now.

Bill, you're a gifted player with a great deal of natural talent. A lot of us don't have that same natural talent and we are envious. But, no matter how gifted you are, you could not play the top level pros and win. So, I guess the best way to win is to just not play them! I've said many times in this thread, I could negotiate a much better spot, but it means I will have to put a lot money green on the light.

Most pool players are very competitive and winning is everything.
We all know many players who will not play anyone if there is a possibility of losing. I think what I'm talking about here is a difficult concept for many people. But, winning is not the most important thing to me.

Respectfully,

Steven

 

[JonTravisTaylor]

10-4 is not much weight if you are an APA 6 and you are playing one of the top one pocket players in the USA.

It's like getting the 7,8 playing Earl or Shane, Johnny, etc.

10-4 doesn't even have to come up if the champion gets to the first shot.

You'd be better off breaking them wide open.

You need to make the Champion go to like 14.

Then you will have a chance.

I agree 100% When you see Dippy playing the champs he is never getting 10-4...it's always 14,15,or 16 to 3,4,5 etc....try 12-4 with you getting all the breaks, then adjust again if you are still losing everything...

 

[Gmanpoke]

I agree 100% When you see Dippy playing the champs he is never getting 10-4...it's always 14,15,or 16 to 3,4,5 etc....try 12-4 with you getting all the breaks, then adjust again if you are still losing everything...

That's a good point. But, how much is Dippy playing for? Next time you see Scott Frost at a tournament, go up to him and ask for 18 to 3 for $10 a game!

 

[JonTravisTaylor]

That's a good point. But, how much is Dippy playing for? Next time you see Scott Frost at a tournament, go up to him and ask for 18 to 3 for $10 a game!

money is relative...scott once played me 10-2 for 20 a game...and efren is also known to play some cheap games..and on the right night he might even play a race to 3 for 40 bucks...When I was a kid Darren Everett played me 1.00 a game one pocket, and I was thrilled to throw my allowance away every week

 

[bstroud]

Thanks for your thoughts and contributions to this Thread. I don't mean to be disrespectful. But if all I want to do is win, I could do that without ever improving. I could always just keep beating the crap out of lesser players. There are plenty of guys I could beat in the pool halls, bars, and leagues without ever improving from where I am now.

Bill, you're a gifted player with a great deal of natural talent. A lot of us don't have that same natural talent and we are envious. But, no matter how gifted you are, you could not play the top level pros and win. So, I guess the best way to win is to just not play them! I've said many times in this thread, I could negotiate a much better spot, but it means I will have to put a lot money green on the light.

Most pool players are very competitive and winning is everything.
We all know many players who will not play anyone if there is a possibility of losing. I think what I'm talking about here is a difficult concept for many people. But, winning is not the most important thing to me.

Respectfully,

Steven

What you have indicated is that you want to improve your game.

As I said before watch better players, practice drills and play as much as you can.

Playing better players when you have no chance to win is not good for your game. It is the worst thing you can do.

Bill Stroud

 

[Hungarian]

Thanks Joey for bringing this thread back!!:thumbup:

 

[JoeyA]

Thanks Joey for bringing this thread back!!:thumbup:

Bill Stroud has many years of valuable experience on me and is an extraordinary talent. I agree with him that drills and practice will make you a better player and is one of the best ways to improve.

I disagree that better players get better, playing lesser players.

I also disagree that you won't get better playing better players. When I have matched up closely with a better player I have almost always come away with more knowledge than what I came with. Sometimes, the only thing I learned is that I didn't match up well enough. Othertimes, they had pity on me and offered some suggestion to improve at least one of my weaknesses. I also learned a shot or two during the "lesson".

Anyway, it's a hobby for people like Steven and myself and it doesn't make us a sucker for playing the better players, even if we lose more often than we win.

The only thing that would make Steven a sucker is if he is losing enough money to cause any hardship to his family or himself.

Some people measure there self worth by how their effort to try and turn someone into a sucker by making the prospective sucker bet enough money that the sucker will dog it.

I don't see any of that happening with Steven.

I like to spend my money and time learning from the better players and talented cueing instructors. I mix it up with a little gambling for fun, some pool lessons with whomever that has something positive to offer, a tournament here and there; but more importantly, a lot of time on the pool table, practicing the things I have learned. While I've won my share of dough from other bangers like myself, I don't have any illusions about gambling to make a living.

Those more serious about trying to turn a dollar at gambling have my blessing but for me it's just entertainment, nothing more.

In the meantime, I will read Coach Lee Brett's book, learn more about SEE Aiming System, go visit Stan Shuffett for some one on one pool lessons and hit a tournament every now and then for more entertainment.

 

[grindz]

There's some absolutely outstanding advise here for the OP (and the rest of us) from equally outstanding players. If you really want to improve your game I'd go back and reread it all (bickering aside) with an open mind, rather than keeping your own paradigm firmly in place and only trying to justify your chosen path.

If I wanted to improve..... I'd.................

Good luck.

td

 

[bstroud]

Bill Stroud has many years of valuable experience on me and is an extraordinary talent. I agree with him that drills and practice will make you a better player and is one of the best ways to improve.

I disagree that better players get better, playing lesser players.

I also disagree that you won't get better playing better players. When I have matched up closely with a better player I have almost always come away with more knowledge than what I came with. Sometimes, the only thing I learned is that I didn't match up well enough. Othertimes, they had pity on me and offered some suggestion to improve at least one of my weaknesses. I also learned a shot or two during the "lesson".

Anyway, it's a hobby for people like Steven and myself and it doesn't make us a sucker for playing the better players, even if we lose more often than we win.

The only thing that would make Steven a sucker is if he is losing enough money to cause any hardship to his family or himself.

Some people measure there self worth by how their effort to try and turn someone into a sucker by making the prospective sucker bet enough money that the sucker will dog it.

I don't see any of that happening with Steven.

I like to spend my money and time learning from the better players and talented cueing instructors. I mix it up with a little gambling for fun, some pool lessons with whomever that has something positive to offer, a tournament here and there; but more importantly, a lot of time on the pool table, practicing the things I have learned. While I've won my share of dough from other bangers like myself, I don't have any illusions about gambling to make a living.

Those more serious about trying to turn a dollar at gambling have my blessing but for me it's just entertainment, nothing more.

Joey,

I think you can learn by playing better players but you can learn more watching better players.

Beating weaker players is what builds confidence and rhythm. Both are necessary when you have to play with players your equal.

If you had to play equal or better players all the time you would never play to your potential.

Winning is the difference. For me at least.

Bill Stroud

 

[wutang]

Do not do this

My goal is to become an "A" level player. Don't know if I'll get there but I keep trying.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

DO NOT DO THE ABOVE. IVE HEARD THIS TIME AND TIME AGAIN. NEVER

SET YOUR GOALS/TALENT/ABILITY TO A CLASS OR LETTER. YOU ARE

SHORTCHANGING YOURSELF. A CLASS OR A RATING IS SOMEONE ELSES

OPINION OF YOU. DONT PUT YOUR TALENTS IN A BOX!!! BE THE BEST YOU

CAN BE WHETHER ITS PRACTICE, TOURAMENT OR GAMBLING. LET IT ALL

HANG OUT AND LET THE PICTURE PAINT ITSELF!!!!


PEACE

WUTANG

 

[Gmanpoke]

My goal is to become an "A" level player. Don't know if I'll get there but I keep trying.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

DO NOT DO THE ABOVE. IVE HEARD THIS TIME AND TIME AGAIN. NEVER

SET YOUR GOALS/TALENT/ABILITY TO A CLASS OR LETTER. YOU ARE

SHORTCHANGING YOURSELF. A CLASS OR A RATING IS SOMEONE ELSES

OPINION OF YOU. DONT PUT YOUR TALENTS IN A BOX!!! BE THE BEST YOU

CAN BE WHETHER ITS PRACTICE, TOURAMENT OR GAMBLING. LET IT ALL

HANG OUT AND LET THE PICTURE PAINT ITSELF!!!!


PEACE

WUTANG

Wutang,

Thank you for your contribution, but I respectfully disagree. The pursuit of self improvement, whether its pool or any other area of one's life, is a unique process for each individual. I do not believe there is only one process for everyone.

While the point of not limiting oneself is valid, most entities (including individuals) who pursuit improvement are successful when they establish a goal. I agree that being the best you can be is a goal; however, that goal is too abstract for most people.

For the past 15 years I have traveled around this country identifying problem banks, assessing bank management and the Board of Directors process for improving the bank. I would also assess whether bank management and the Board of Directors had the capacity to improve the bank.

In my opinion, the best opportunity to improve is to first establish a goal or objective. You must also establish lower level goals, targets, or benchmarks, what ever you want to call them (wordsmithing is not the important part). The overall objective and the lower level goals must be achievable (realistic), identifiable, and measurable.

Once you develop these identifiable, measurable, and realistic goals, then you must create a strategy and/or a process to achieve these goals. You then periodically measure your success.

When you measure your success, you must be honest with yourself. You must evaluate the strategy/process to determine if adjustment is needed. The honesty part, is you need to assess whether the original goals/objectives are achievable. You will also benefit from an independent evaluation of the goals and strategy/process. This independent evaluation can be in the form of a coach, instructor, mentor, auditor, ect... It could also be from a Thread on an internet site, which morphs into a life of its own.

Look, the idea is to achieve the lower level goals to build confidence (what many have talked about in the thread, most recently Bill Stroud). Also, the lower level goal must be inline with the overall objective. That does not mean they have to be the exact same. Once you achieve your overall goal/objective, you can reevaluate (establish and even higher goal) if that is what you chose to do.

In 1982, I was a snot nose kid with a wife and a little baby. I was a bricklayer in the Tulsa metro area. I don't know how old you are, but the 1980s was not a good time to be in the construction business.

I'm now a Chief Credit Officer for a billion dollar bank. That little baby I mentioned above, well, she is in medical school. She spent her first two years of medical school in Dominica West Indies.

I guess what I'm saying is the process that I outlined has served me very well. For most people, without a goal and a plan, you will not succeed. While the goal of being the best you can be may work for some, I believe it's too abstract for most.

Bill Stroud, I don't disagree with what you have said, I just don't think you fully understand what I'm trying to achieve. My perception is, you think the objective is to win. This is where you and I differ. I believe winning is a byproduct.

Respectfully,

Steven

 

[JoeyA]

Yes, beating weaker players can build confidence and rhythm. I see where you are coming from. I was coming from the perspective of knowledge but you already know that. Thanks for your answer.

Hope to see you on the tournament trail.

 

[JC]

"Paying for lessons"

Is a lame excuse. This is not what you are doing. The only time you are getting "lessons" is when you are in your chair. You can watch the same player play with no cost to you from the rail and learn just as much or more. Especially if the opponent is worthy to the champion. Your "learning" is double in this case. Paying a qualified instructor is way different. The lesson in this case is all about you. Those who equate these two are delusional and trying to justify their gambling habits and it's a bit insulting to the good instructors out there. These same "gamblers" will sit and feed the lottery or slot machines.

Now on the other hand I see nothing wrong with occasionally playing for a few bucks you can afford to lose even if you know your chances are slim. A lot of us rarely get a chance to play a top player and it can be real fun on occasion. Fun things cost fun tickets to participate. But when you make a habit out of it you do risk crossing into the "sucker" zone.

 

[Gmanpoke]

Is a lame excuse. This is not what you are doing. The only time you are getting "lessons" is when you are in your chair. You can watch the same player play with no cost to you from the rail and learn just as much or more. Especially if the opponent is worthy to the champion. Your "learning" is double in this case. Paying a qualified instructor is way different. The lesson in this case is all about you. Those who equate these two are delusional and trying to justify their gambling habits and it's a bit insulting to the good instructors out there. These same "gamblers" will sit and feed the lottery or slot machines.

Now on the other hand I see nothing wrong with occasionally playing for a few bucks you can afford to lose even if you know your chances are slim. A lot of us rarely get a chance to play a top player and it can be real fun on occasion. Fun things cost fun tickets to participate. But when you make a habit out of it you do risk crossing into the "sucker" zone.

I maybe a sucker. But, if you have read through the entire Thread (I know it would take a while to do), you would know I'm not a gambler. Jesse and I had a conversation in some of the earlier posts about methods of learning.

It's always interesting to me when people begin to state their opinions as those its the only way. Such as, you could learn just as much sitting in a chair. I don't know you and I don't know what your optimal learning process is. But, I assure you, there are many methods of learning. Your personal method of learning maybe from observing, but not everyone's is.

For example: I could observe a concert violinist for years, but I still could not play a lick. I know this is a extreme example and we are working under the assumption that I have a certain level knowledge and skill of the game.

Lets think about another example. How about football. More specifically, football practice. Now, we could start talking about doing drill on the pool table and practice but that's not the point of this example. so, please indulge me for a moment. In football practice, players are actually participating not just observing. While there is a great deal of value in watching films (observing), players still have to physically participate in practice. Lets continue with our football example. If you were a secondary coach for a college football team and you had a young corner back. If you wanted to develop this young corner back, would you make him:

A) only practice against the scout team so that he only wins and builds confidence;
B) only watch game films because he can learn just as much from observing;
C) only practice against the All American wide receiver you have on the team;
D) How about all the above because there are many methods to learning. And, a great deal to be gained from all the processes.

Respectfully,

Steven

 

[JoeyA]

Get in the grease!

Is a lame excuse. This is not what you are doing. The only time you are getting "lessons" is when you are in your chair. You can watch the same player play with no cost to you from the rail and learn just as much or more. Especially if the opponent is worthy to the champion. Your "learning" is double in this case. Paying a qualified instructor is way different. The lesson in this case is all about you. Those who equate these two are delusional and trying to justify their gambling habits and it's a bit insulting to the good instructors out there. These same "gamblers" will sit and feed the lottery or slot machines.

Now on the other hand I see nothing wrong with occasionally playing for a few bucks you can afford to lose even if you know your chances are slim. A lot of us rarely get a chance to play a top player and it can be real fun on occasion. Fun things cost fun tickets to participate. But when you make a habit out of it you do risk crossing into the "sucker" zone.

You seem to be taking this as an affont to instructors and that's far from the truth.

The truth is that there are not many instructors that teach one pocket.

The other truth is, you can sit on the sidelines and watch one pocket until your brow wrinkles; however, until you actually put yourself in harm's way, you're never going to fully know how you should play one pocket.

People ask me all of the time to teach them how to play one pocket and I can do that and quickly, showing the person what shots to shoot and which ones not to shoot. While that can help, the other sad truth is most people don't get it, until they have been penalized and that means playing for stakes (serious competition, money, tournament etc). Sitting on the sideline is where people start saying, "Why that's like watching paint dry!".

If I showed you my favorite shot in one pocket, you might remember it or not. In this "lesson", it is unlikely in most cases that you would go out and practice it until you made it your own. If I beat you using my favorite shot and it was for stakes, you would definitely remember it and learn how to use it. For some reason, most people, remember a painful lesson better. But like others have said, it may be different for others........

 

[The Saw]

One big thing you learn playing good players is a bitter hate and disgust for losing. It's good motivation for some and good for their heart health.....

 

[bstroud]

The best use I see for a weaker player to play better players cheap is to measure their own progress.

Without some sort of yardstick you don't really know if you are playing better or not.

When you play a better player do you play his game or do you play your own game? It's imperative that you play your own game. If the game you have matched up won't let you do that, quit and match up again.

If you think it is just an exercise so that you can learn something new, that is one thing. If you want to win then that is something else.

I give lots of players huge spots and sometimes they learn a shot or two. Most of the time however they just watch me run balls. Not the best way to learn.

I think you learn faster with drills, practice and winning. Not losing.

But that's just me. I take losing very hard. More than anyone could imagine.
It helps me win more often.

Bill Stroud

 

[Zhero]

I wish I had the opportunity to play top-level players...not everyday mind you, but once in awhile.

I look at the money you lose while playing better players is the cost of a pool "lesson". There are people on here who make a living by organized clinics or individual lessons... The way I learn, is by emulating. So to me, playing a better player and seeing how they do what they do, is no different than taking an "organized" lesson from an instructor...


Jason

well said, same to me, it is just lesson money.

 

[JC]

I maybe a sucker. But, if you have read through the entire Thread (I know it would take a while to do), you would know I'm not a gambler. Jesse and I had a conversation in some of the earlier posts about methods of learning.

It's always interesting to me when people begin to state their opinions as those its the only way. Such as, you could learn just as much sitting in a chair. I don't know you and I don't know what your optimal learning process is. But, I assure you, there are many methods of learning. Your personal method of learning maybe from observing, but not everyone's is.

You asked if you were a sucker and I gave my opinion which wasn't meant to dissuade you or devalue what you get out of it. Apparently my opinion wasn't the one you were looking for, sorry about that. My main thought train however was directed at the mentality in this thread expressed in the quote below. Which, again in my opinion, is deeply seeded in denial.

well said, same to me, it is just lesson money.