Benefits of a hard tip

buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I completely agree with you. I used to use Kamui softs until I bought a new shaft that came with a Tiger Everest. I like the Everest the best when the red warning layer is almost exposed. I have had the last one on for about a year now. I did not shape it at all for the first couple months, when I finally did reshape it it must have been compressed well because I have not had to shape for 7-8 months. I break with my playing cue most of the time too. It is my opinion that nothing can kill the feel of a cue more than a soft tip, I ask people who I shoot with why they use soft and super oft tips and none really seem to have any answer. I know from trying out cues that other people have which brands I would never consider buying, it may just be because of the soft tip but I hate the way they feel and have no other baseline for them. i wipe my tip off with a towel every time it goes in the case, I will have to try the body oil thing and see how that works. I will also probably try a Moori hard on one of my spare cues, thank you for the good info. :smile:

To add...... Maybe matching the tip to the harmonics of the shaft will make or break the feel of a shaft. One might feel better with a soft or vise versa. Even from the same manufacturer.

And I agree... the Everest did play better IMO when the edge was within 2 layers of the red. I thought about grinding a new one down to the red. But I just couldn't do that to a new tip. Plus it wont get the same compression treatment from hitting it a lot..... So it might not work anyway.

I have found the hard tip to play close to the same all its life. I can't notice a difference. I will see when I replace this one. It will be a while yet. I figure I will get 3 years out if it. I think I put it on in 2016 .
 
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Drawback

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've used a lot of different makes of tips, like most everyone else. For the longest time I was buying Kamui tips at $20.00 or more per tip. I kinda favored the super softs when they were brand new but they changed quickly, so I started going with the mediums for quite a while.

Then I tried the Milk Duds and really liked those. But they were not available at that time only through this site and I don't know if that's changed but I suspect it has.

Then I started using Ultra Skins and immediately didn't care for them.

Finally, after a long circuitous route, I'm back to good old $0.15c LePro's. They're hard enough, resist mushrooming, draw like Walt Disney and overall just fine. I think nearly all my shafts have them on nowadays.:)
 

asamimasa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
2 things....
First is after play, I wipe the chalk off with the palm of my hand. And I vigorously rub the tip with the palm until I feel a heat build up. I'm using the oil in my hand to condition the tip after every use. When I get the shaft back out, the tip holds chalk like it was magnetic.

Does anyone else do this to their tips? I've heard of people using saliva to condition the leather.

From a materials standpoint, these two are not advisable. The objective of burnishing the sides is to flatten the grain by forming a barrier through the combination of moisture and friction. You can get a little bit of burnishing just through friction, which is what is happening when you rub the playing area of the tip; has the opposite effect of scuffing a tip and reduces surface area for the tip to hold onto chalk.


I'm hesitant to condition leather tips. Cue tips are made of vegetable tanned leather, and reacts to every form of moisture applied. On the far end, you can reshape vegetable tanned leather by submerging it in water. Once it dries out, it hardens and retains the shape it was in, most easily imaginable in leather armor. In this case, neatsfoot oil may be used to make the leather supple, but too supple isn't a good thing for play, though good for longevity. It would be even less advisable to do so with layered tips where the interstitial adhesive may become compromised.


This is where milk duds come in - you start out with a veg tan tip that's pretty loose in grain (= more surface area to hold onto chalk), soak it so it's pliable, press it to reduce future mushrooming, and has the net effect of being hardened. The milk or whatever recipe should be optimized to condition the leather to prevent it from feeling too dry, but I've never come across any oils added because that's seemingly not the form of desired conditioning.


As far as Fats keeping them in his pocket, tanned isn't quite the right word, like how film doesn't develop any further after it's stable enough to be in the light. Through contact to dirt and oils, it develops a patina, which puts it in a stable, pliable state where it holds 'memory' of how it's moved around; a well made wallet or boot being a familiar example. Hand oils will color, but not interact with the leather for the purpose of longevity to a significant degree.


Here's a quick test comparing chalk adhesion with burnished/unburnished leather:

Qlu753zh.jpg

The darker side is burnished and oiled

BmVQO0Ch.jpg

Only the burnished portion where the grain is coming back up is catching chalk.

sR9ONuKh.jpg

Before Chalking, shiny side is burnished like the sides of the tip

s4biwKPh.jpg

After
 
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Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
First is after play, I wipe the chalk off with the palm of my hand. And I vigorously rub the tip with the palm until I feel a heat build up. I'm using the oil in my hand to condition the tip after every use. When I get the shaft back out, the tip holds chalk like it was magnetic.

I'm going to start doing this until you tell me it was a joke to see if anyone would fall for such a thing.


Freddie <~~~ ullible
 

M.G.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Second.... why do some of you like a soft, or super soft tip? Is it just feel? Or do you think you get more spin on the cue ball? I can get so much spin with the hard tip, it gets me in trouble many times.

Well, I have been a soft and slow (as in CB speed) player since I've started playing. Didn't see the point in bashing in balls, it makes everything complicated.
I started with a Tiger Everest, which was great in the very beginning. It got harder and harder and I quickly didn't like it anymore.

Then I got around to play a Tiger Onyx and Sniper - and boy, where they great when they were new.
That slighty bouncy feeling when hitting the CB gave me a better feedback about my speed and also with extreme English I could hit the CB "quieter" or "more relaxed". I also like the height of the Ultraskins, it makes for a great bouncy feeling and I seem to feel how the tip bites/hugs into the CB.

On my Snooker shaft I play very soft leathers. The ash shaft + cue butt also have an interesting combination of flexibility and stiffness, direct solid feedback but without feeling like hitting with a steel pipe or lots of vibrations.

Yes, I really need to regularly shape it (it flattens out in the middle, no real mushrooming) and I really like the aiming when the tip is very round. I can't play with a flattened tip at all!

But, however you like it always is the best (for you).

Cheers!
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Careful Cornerman -- I burned a hole right through my hand using this technique. The plus side is I now have a good gauge to measure the thickness of a prospective shaft.
 

buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm going to start doing this until you tell me it was a joke to see if anyone would fall for such a thing.


Freddie <~~~ ullible

I can promise you it works with a hard tip. I never
really tried it with say like a le pro. Didnt know about it
back then. But my Morri always chalks beautifully
after doing this and it never glazes.

Just out of case....
http://forums.azbilliards.com/picture.php?albumid=1894&pictureid=18123

A quick chalking with Masters ...
http://forums.azbilliards.com/picture.php?albumid=1894&pictureid=18124

And I do not scuff or pick this tip.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I wipe the chalk off with the palm of my hand. And I vigorously rub the tip with the palm until I feel a heat build up. I'm using the oil in my hand to condition the tip after every use. When I get the shaft back out, the tip holds chalk like it was magnetic.
Do you pick or scuff your tip? I like picking because it doesn't remove any leather (and doesn't damage layered tips, by the way) - once each time before I play is enough and my hard Ultraskin tips hold chalk like it's magnetic too.

pj
chgo
 

Kats 11

Registered
It could I suppose. Not my intention. Just looking for opinions.... Not arguments. The leather conditioning for example. How many do it? How often do you have to replace a soft tip? Does anyone else experience a high end (Kamui or Predator for example) soft tip get harder near the end of its life? Do you have to tip ***** your tips? That's what I'm looking for.



My zan plus soft tip that originally came with the ex pro shaft I back then ordered is still in great condition after 3.5 years of use(and in many occasions abuse!!!!!!)..never mushroomed,never needed reshape,never miscued unless a bad stroke..I believe it’s the feel for using a soft tip,how the sound of the tip contacting the cb gives you the information you want about the shot/stroke/ball speed etc.It s just a matter of preference


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Kats 11

Registered
I used to use Le pros, and Tiger Everest, and Tiger Onyx..... all of which are mediums. I quit using the Lepro because of constant maintenance. Mushrooming, glazing, and they would change hardness over the life of the tip. Everest and Onyx were ok. But they also got harder over time, and required occasional reshaping.



My game seemed to improve when the tips were at the end of their life. So that, and the rising costs of the Tiger products, I decided to try a Moori hard. I play very well with them at installation. My current one has been on the cue for 2 years. And I haven't reshaped it since install. It does not glaze. I don't miscues unless it's a really crappy stroke.



2 things....

First is after play, I wipe the chalk off with the palm of my hand. And I vigorously rub the tip with the palm until I feel a heat build up. I'm using the oil in my hand to condition the tip after every use. When I get the shaft back out, the tip holds chalk like it was magnetic.



Does anyone else do this to their tips? I've heard of people using saliva to condition the leather.



Second.... why do some of you like a soft, or super soft tip? Is it just feel? Or do you think you get more spin on the cue ball? I can get so much spin with the hard tip, it gets me in trouble many times. And I will over draw many times. I even over draw the steel core mud balls at times.



Would like to know the make and firmness of tips you all use and why you like them. I for one like the merit a hard leather tip offers.



Your opinion on the snipers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do you pick or scuff your tip? I like picking because it doesn't remove any leather (and doesn't damage layered tips, by the way) - once each time before I play is enough and my hard Ultraskin tips hold chalk like it's magnetic too.

pj
chgo

No. I do not scuff or pick it at all.
 

buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Your opinion on the snipers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can't say anything about a Sniper.... never used one. Supposed to play simular to an Onyx, and I thought it played good. I played better with it when the sides got closer to the warning layer. It felt better to me. The Onyx did need groomed from time to time. But just to burnish the sides.

I just didn't like the fact that I was paying $11 to $12 apiece for them, then like magic, they instantly went to $21 due to MAP pricing. I knew Tiger was buttflocking me so I quit using them.

Tips playing better for me after they get some compaction tells me I prefer hard tips. I think it's like what some people think of the wood ferrule OB shaft with the vibration dampening core. They don't have the feel to them. But they like the OB classic. Better feedback through the shaft. I guess a hard tip does the same thing for me.
 

Kats 11

Registered
I can't say anything about a Sniper.... never used one. Supposed to play simular to an Onyx, and I thought it played good. I played better with it when the sides got closer to the warning layer. It felt better to me. The Onyx did need groomed from time to time. But just to burnish the sides.

I just didn't like the fact that I was paying $11 to $12 apiece for them, then like magic, they instantly went to $21 due to MAP pricing. I knew Tiger was buttflocking me so I quit using them.

Tips playing better for me after they get some compaction tells me I prefer hard tips. I think it's like what some people think of the wood ferrule OB shaft with the vibration dampening core. They don't have the feel to them. But they like the OB classic. Better feedback through the shaft. I guess a hard tip does the same thing for me.



Appreciate it,thank you...I used to play with the sniper on my wd700 for 3 years.a bit hard,specially after 3-4 months use but I absolutely loved it...then switched to the ex pro shaft,stuck to that perfect zan plus soft and haven’t changed it since!!!!!!and it’s already been 3.5 years that i play with it....


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Sealegs50

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's possible that the slightly harder (less "cushioned") hit from a harder tip produces slightly more CB speed and RPMs, which can produce slightly more draw/follow.

But the spin-to-speed ratio remains the same for the same tip offset on the CB, and spin/speed ratio determines the amount of sidespin effect (angle change off the rail) - so you should see no real change there.

pj
chgo

For me, softer tips act like buffers against my intended stroke. The harder the tip (short of being extra hard), the more I compensate by softening my stroke, which is good for my game. Harder tips seem to require a bit more attention to chalking between every shot, which is also good for my game. I don’t agree with pool hall lore that suggests hard tips require superior stroking capabilities from players.

I don’t like tips picks, tappers, or shapers, particularly on layered tips. As tips mature, the layers get pretty thin and those tools hasten the time to delamination. My experience with gator tools has been excellent. The surface scuffs enough to hold chalk with little to no loss of tip mass and no negative effects on the lamination.

JMO YMMV
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
Hard tips absorb less energy. Given the same stroke speed, the cue ball will have more power with a hard tip vs. a soft tip. Aside from that, there's really no advantage that isn't based on personal preference.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Hard tips absorb less energy. Given the same stroke speed, the cue ball will have more power with a hard tip vs. a soft tip. Aside from that, there's really no advantage that isn't based on personal preference.
I can think of a couple more advantages (that have been mentioned here): as you play with them they change shape and hardness less than softer tips - i.e., more consistent throughout their lives.

pj
chgo
 

tabunnn

Registered
I used to use Le pros, and Tiger Everest, and Tiger Onyx..... all of which are mediums. I quit using the Lepro because of constant maintenance. Mushrooming, glazing, and they would change hardness over the life of the tip. Everest and Onyx were ok. But they also got harder over time, and required occasional reshaping.

My game seemed to improve when the tips were at the end of their life. So that, and the rising costs of the Tiger products, I decided to try a Moori hard. I play very well with them at installation. My current one has been on the cue for 2 years. And I haven't reshaped it since install. It does not glaze. I don't miscues unless it's a really crappy stroke.

2 things....
First is after play, I wipe the chalk off with the palm of my hand. And I vigorously rub the tip with the palm until I feel a heat build up. I'm using the oil in my hand to condition the tip after every use. When I get the shaft back out, the tip holds chalk like it was magnetic.

Does anyone else do this to their tips? I've heard of people using saliva to condition the leather.

Second.... why do some of you like a soft, or super soft tip? Is it just feel? Or do you think you get more spin on the cue ball? I can get so much spin with the hard tip, it gets me in trouble many times. And I will over draw many times. I even over draw the steel core mud balls at times.

Would like to know the make and firmness of tips you all use and why you like them. I for one like the merit a hard leather tip offers.

can you make photo of your moori h tip ??
 
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