Best Cushions for my Gold Crown

[FeelDaShot]

That is straight up NOT the situation at all.
In my opinion that is the easy way to say this:
I am doing something necessary with out
really explaining anything to you and you should
just trust me.

"K55 cushions measure 1 ¼” across the top
and 1 5/16” high at back (glue) side. Keep in
mind if you have an older Brunswick (prior to 1975),
be sure to measure the back side of the cushion
at the glue side and confirm 1 5/16” before
ordering. Older K55 cushions had a 1 5/16”
back side dimension but a 1 1/8” top side
measurement (same as K66)."
Courtesy of Ken Hash from Classic Billiards.

The TOP of the rail is bigger. The back of the
cushion(the glue side that mounts to the subrail)
is the same as the Monarch Superspeed.

This "subrail" modification is changing the
bevel of the subrail that the cushion mounts
to by "x" amount of a degree one way or the other.
This is where "opinion" comes into play and
that is not factual and no one has so far been
able to convince me that it is quantifiable other
than "because I said so". No tests, no research
and there for no facts to support the claim.

I think I have explained my point of view. I based
my opinion on working on the tables personally,
playing on them, from factual dimensions of the
cushions and I think I will just keep doing what I
have been doing. As many of these old tables I
have restored, I have not had a single client ever
call me and say: my table plays wrong.

Trent from Toledo

P.s. Dean, didn't you come on here and call a
certain Mechanic out for failure to deliver on a
$23,000.00 deal?
Now you are quoting him on this?

Thanks for your input Trent. Over the summer I was upgrading my gold crown and planning to do the work myself. I searched through these forums everyday for weeks trying to figure out how to do the subrail mods. Ultimately, I found a lot of interesting threads but the explanations of what was actually being done with clear measurements and explanations was missing. It seems like the people doing these repairs want to keep it all a secret and sell their services or they are too uneducated or unmotivated to clearly explain the process.

Eventually, I decided to hire Jerimy Chambers to build brand new rails but I've been waiting a long time now and nothing seems to be getting done. Pretty frustrating process but I still believe Jerimy will come through one day.

 

[bradsh98]

Thanks for your input Trent. Over the summer I was upgrading my gold crown and planning to do the work myself. I searched through these forums everyday for weeks trying to figure out how to do the subrail mods. Ultimately, I found a lot of interesting threads but the explanations of what was actually being done with clear measurements and explanations was missing. It seems like the people doing these repairs want to keep it all a secret and sell their services or they are too uneducated or unmotivated to clearly explain the process.

Eventually, I decided to hire Jerimy Chambers to build brand new rails but I've been waiting a long time now and nothing seems to be getting done. Pretty frustrating process but I still believe Jerimy will come through one day.

The information is there, though it requires a bit of searching..

As a DIY'er, there are a number of ways to go about it. To do it properly, you would need custom built tooling.

Essentially, start by cutting the sub-rail height to 1 11/16". Then adjust the angle of the sub-rail face such that you get the desired nose height. Some like 1 7/16", some 1 29/64".. Then, cut the angle at the bottom of the sub-rail, to thin out the mounting face. The face should be slightly wider than the cushion that you are installing. The angles change, depending on the cushion that you use, just as the distance from the back of the featherstrip dado will change.

I have even posted dimensioned drawings of sub-rails.. What I have just spelled out is the process. I'm not sure how much more you would need? The height is the key. Everything else is determined by that first cut.

Regardless, I believe that you will be quite pleased with Jerimy's rails. They play great!

 

[Tony_in_MD]

50 X 100 exactly.

4.5 inch corners and 5 inch side pockets.

141 degree miters in the corner pockets, and 102 miters in the side pockets, 13 degrees down angle.

Dead nuts perfect.

We are conversing in a civil matter, here and by no means am I trying to argue or get upset myself or upset anyone.

I provided the dimensions of the cushions , aka facts of the matter. Go measure your playing surface in both directions. I wonder how exact they are? I have read posts on here that a specific mechanic openly said their railwork(very pricey) was not exactly 50" x 100", and that was to "keep the shelf deeper".

My experience with paying to have the subrail work done(about 6 sets of Anny and Centennial rails) was the same outcome, not exact and off by "x" amount each direction. Not enough to make a big deal about. Pool & pool tables are not an exact science and neither are PERFECT.

At the end of the day there is this: I tell each and every customer of mine about the cushion issue and the option to pay for the subrail modification. 99% of my customers have said no. People get what they pay for and it is simple as that.

I have given my opinion, we are all allowed that. Everyone have a good day!

Trent from Toledo

 

[Poolhall60561]

How does that one k66 rail play? I have played on Gold Crowns with all K66 on them and you could only get about 2 rails back and forth length wise. Not to mention you could HEAR THE CUE BALL HITTING THE BOTTOM OF THE SUBRAIL with an aggressive stroke!

Trent from Toledo

4 rails no problem, no hopping and banks look good.
The Superspeeds are at least 50 years old.

 

[realkingcobra]

We are conversing in a civil matter, here and by no means am I trying to argue or get upset myself or upset anyone.

I provided the dimensions of the cushions , aka facts of the matter. Go measure your playing surface in both directions. I wonder how exact they are? I have read posts on here that a specific mechanic openly said their railwork(very pricey) was not exactly 50" x 100", and that was to "keep the shelf deeper".

My experience with paying to have the subrail work done(about 6 sets of Anny and Centennial rails) was the same outcome, not exact and off by "x" amount each direction. Not enough to make a big deal about. Pool & pool tables are not an exact science and neither are PERFECT.

At the end of the day there is this: I tell each and every customer of mine about the cushion issue and the option to pay for the subrail modification. 99% of my customers have said no. People get what they pay for and it is simple as that.

I have given my opinion, we are all allowed that. Everyone have a good day!

Trent from Toledo

Let me clear something up for you, Just because the old Brunswick monarch cushions measure 1 1/8" across the top of the cushions and K66 measure the same, that DON'T change them from being a K55 profile cushion! If you line up the old Monarch K55 cushions end to end with todays K66 cushions, you'll see the K66 cushion nose height is an 1/8" higher, so don't confuse people with referring to them as K66 cushions when they're not!

 

[trentfromtoledo]

Let me clear something up for you, Just because the old Brunswick monarch cushions measure 1 1/8" across the top of the cushions and K66 measure the same, that DON'T change them from being a K55 profile cushion! If you line up the old Monarch K55 cushions end to end with todays K66 cushions, you'll see the K66 cushion nose height is an 1/8" higher, so don't confuse people with referring to them as K66 cushions when they're not!

As I said on the phone a little bit ago I never anywhere in this post said the monarch superspeed are K66

Trent from Toledo

P.s. Tony, I am happy to hear your table is as close to perfect as possible! Glen is the best out there. :thumbup:

 

[trentfromtoledo]

Thanks for your input Trent. Over the summer I was upgrading my gold crown and planning to do the work myself. I searched through these forums everyday for weeks trying to figure out how to do the subrail mods. Ultimately, I found a lot of interesting threads but the explanations of what was actually being done with clear measurements and explanations was missing. It seems like the people doing these repairs want to keep it all a secret and sell their services or they are too uneducated or unmotivated to clearly explain the process.

Eventually, I decided to hire Jerimy Chambers to build brand new rails but I've been waiting a long time now and nothing seems to be getting done. Pretty frustrating process but I still believe Jerimy will come through one day.

Just posting my opinion based on the facts I have researched on the topic. I think most of it is BS and if a claim can't be backed up with facts: it is merely an opinion. There are a handful of guys who do subrail work properly. I mostly have it done when the subrails, jaws and staple relief are roached. Very few people I sell tables to want the subrail mod service. My customers are happy with my cushion/ facing work concerning play-ability.

I play quite a bit of pool. Being in the business that I am, I get to play on lots of great pool tables that I restore and visit many pool halls on the road. Gold Crowns are my fav for 8 ball and 9 ball. Blue label Diamond's for One pocket. I feel I have enough experience from just playing to know how a table a table plays and whether or not it is playing right. Add how much research I have done speaking with the best mechanics, working on the tables and simply trying to understand why certain tables play the way they do, helps as well.

Jerimy will come through for you and from what I have heard/ seen posted on here in the mechanics forum you will be completely happy.

I love pool/ pool tables and seem to be able to play pretty decent on all of them. Any decent player can usually adapt to the tables that are put in front of them.

Trent from Toledo

Superspeed Mounted on a GC1 Rail with no mod.

 

[realkingcobra]

Just posting my opinion based on the facts I have researched on the topic. I think most of it is BS and if a claim can't be backed up with facts: it is merely an opinion. There are a handful of guys who do subrail work properly. I mostly have it done when the subrails, jaws and staple relief are roached. Very few people I sell tables to want the subrail mod service. My customers are happy with my cushion/ facing work concerning play-ability.

I play quite a bit of pool. Being in the business that I am, I get to play on lots of great pool tables that I restore and visit many pool halls on the road. Gold Crowns are my fav for 8 ball and 9 ball. Blue label Diamond's for One pocket. I feel I have enough experience from just playing to know how a table a table plays and whether or not it is playing right. Add how much research I have done speaking with the best mechanics, working on the tables and simply trying to understand why certain tables play the way they do, helps as well.

Jerimy will come through for you and from what I have heard/ seen posted on here in the mechanics forum you will be completely happy.

I love pool/ pool tables and seem to be able to play pretty decent on all of them. Any decent player can usually adapt to the tables that are put in front of them.

Trent from Toledo

Superspeed Mounted on a GC1 Rail with no mod.

And without modifying the sub rails, what is the playing surface of that table, and what is it suppose to be???

 

[winners07]

Rubber

And without modifying the sub rails, what is the playing surface of that table, and what is it suppose to be???

ok I have a question, I have a 1928 model Bunswick table where the rail bolts inside the slate. What rubber is sopose to be on this table because it had the original rubber but not brunswick, would you go with k55 or 66, thanks Gary

 

[trentfromtoledo]

And without modifying the sub rails, what is the playing surface of that table, and what is it suppose to be???

Yes, Glen, I am pretty sure we all know the playing surface will be off by a 1/4" in each direction. Anyone who can play pool well can play on any table, including one that is off by that small amount

I do appreciate that you and a handful of others can make the tables play that "x" amount better. Most people don't want to pay for that and would not be able to tell the difference.

As much as you say "it should be included", that is a matter of your opinion. I offer it to all my clients and 99% of them refuse. The only times I include the sub rail mod is when the subrails, jaws and staple relief are roached. Then it is my responsibility to have it done because the rails are in a state of FAILURE.

Love ya man, but, its just not that big of a deal. My clients are happy with their tables.

Trent from Toledo

The final point is this: Anyone who wants to upgrade their rails at some point, can pay to have it done! It's not like they are stuck with it. I have yet to get a single call: 54 GC's(models 1, 3, 4, still have never bought a 2!!!), 18 Anniversary's and 5 Centennials in the last 5 years. total sub rail mods: 6 sets of rails.

My photo albums showin most of my work: https://www.facebook.com/pg/toledopooltables/photos/?tab=albums

 

[realkingcobra]

ok I have a question, I have a 1928 model Bunswick table where the rail bolts inside the slate. What rubber is sopose to be on this table because it had the original rubber but not brunswick, would you go with k55 or 66, thanks Gary

Won't matter, they're not designed for the modern cushions anyway, so the sub rails are going to have to be modified regardless of which ever cushions are installed, but I'd install superspeed.K55 cushions when they're done.

 

[realkingcobra]

Yes, Glen, I am pretty sure we all know the playing surface will be off by a 1/4" in each direction. Anyone who can play pool well can play on any table, including one that is off by that small amount

I do appreciate that you and a handful of others can make the tables play that "x" amount better. Most people don't want to pay for that and would not be able to tell the difference.

As much as you say "it should be included", that is a matter of your opinion. I offer it to all my clients and 99% of them refuse. The only times I include the sub rail mod is when the subrails, jaws and staple relief are roached. Then it is my responsibility to have it done because the rails are in a state of FAILURE.

Love ya man, but, its just not that big of a deal. My clients are happy with their tables.

Trent from Toledo

The final point is this: Anyone who wants to upgrade their rails at some point, can pay to have it done! It's not like they are stuck with it. I have yet to get a single call: 54 GC's(models 1, 3, 4, still have never bought a 2!!!), 18 Anniversary's and 5 Centennials in the last 5 years. total sub rail mods: 6 sets of rails.

My photo albums showin most of my work: https://www.facebook.com/pg/toledopooltables/photos/?tab=albums

And right there's the difference between your work and mine, I don't ask my customers if the want the sub rails modified, to me it's not an option, its MY work, and I refuse to do anything just to be OK, but you seem to think that your customers are fine with it, but truth be known not one of your customers are buying a pool table because they're pool players, the just happen to have a room that needs something to fill in the empty space....and a pool table wi do nicely! I do the modifications because some of my customers might actually have a friend or two that CAN play pool pretty good....and I DON'T want them telling my customers that hey....this table don't really play all that well!! When your customers don't know the difference between a 5 ball and an orange, DON'T lean on them to much as a source of credibility towards your work, they're not the experts, YOU'RE suppose to be the expert, and therefore you should be offering the best possible work that can be done to a pool table, NOT stopping short by saying...."I offered to have the rails rebuilt at X amount of dollars more and my customers all declined"

Tell me something, when you pick up an Anniversary in pretty good condition for $2500, do you start seeing it for $3000 as is, but if they want the casting polished its X more, and if you want the rails refinished its X more, skirts refinished X more! Do you give them THOSE options as well?

 

[trentfromtoledo]

And right there's the difference between your work and mine, I don't ask my customers if the want the sub rails modified, to me it's not an option, its MY work, and I refuse to do anything just to be OK, but you seem to think that your customers are fine with it, but truth be known not one of your customers are buying a pool table because they're pool players, the just happen to have a room that needs something to fill in the empty space....and a pool table wi do nicely! I do the modifications because some of my customers might actually have a friend or two that CAN play pool pretty good....and I DON'T want them telling my customers that hey....this table don't really play all that well!! When your customers don't know the difference between a 5 ball and an orange, DON'T lean on them to much as a source of credibility towards your work, they're not the experts, YOU'RE suppose to be the expert, and therefore you should be offering the best possible work that can be done to a pool table, NOT stopping short by saying...."I offered to have the rails rebuilt at X amount of dollars more and my customers all declined"

Tell me something, when you pick up an Anniversary in pretty good condition for $2500, do you start seeing it for $3000 as is, but if they want the casting polished its X more, and if you want the rails refinished its X more, skirts refinished X more! Do you give them THOSE options as well?

Most people I sell to want a refinished table, that is a known fact. Here is a neat comparison to the situation: When you buy a Porsche, TURBO is an option above and beyond the base model. If someone buys the base model, it still looks amazing and performs very well,but, just does not have the TURBO!!! Nothing wrong with not needing a TURBO.

You are the best out there and you do things how you do it, I of all people, certainly appreciate that. When people start calling me and telling me their friends say they don't like the way their tables play, A. I will be surprised. B. I will remind them of the conversation we had about subrail modifications. C. I will tell them it is time to have their rails modified!

We had a discussion about pool tables and how they play. I am not as "new" as I used to be and understand how a table plays, good or bad.... I get to play on quite a few of my customers tables and I am happy with them and so are they!

The last item to discuss: When I can tell someone is looking for something that plays absolutely the best: I steer them into either a GC 4/5/6 or Blue Label Diamond. I happen to sell those as well my friend :thumbup:

Not going to argue all day with you about this. You do what you do and I do what I do. My customers like what I do

Have a great day!!! I am off to Pittsburgh to deliver and install a brand new 7' Diamond!


Trent from Toledo