I would appreciate some input as to the best glue used for coring. If you have had a problem with any particular glue please let me know.
Good Cuemaking,
Good Cuemaking,
Best Glue for Coring
- Thread starter Arnot Wadsworth
- Start date
Hell has frozen over, Arnie is coring. 
West system 105 with 206 hardener get my vote.
A scale with gram units is a must.
West system 105 with 206 hardener get my vote.
A scale with gram units is a must.
FWIW I don't see how you can get any better than west. Core and inch from the end and dump the epoxy in the hole insert properly fitted slug, twist, bottom out and wala no air pockets. Can't get any more solid than that. As I understand it many don't like west for the reason of airpockets. Don't know if this answered or helped.
John
John
System Three..........T88.........measured by weight.
why not wood Glue??? I believe that epoxys can do air pockets¡¡
I have avoided West System or any epoxy for longer coring. I have used Gorilla Glue with no problems so far. But after reading of this method I think gluing with West System could possibly be a better choice if done this way.
Glue for coring
I've tried epoxy and Gorilla glue and wasn't sure which was best so I glued
up two forearm pieces, one with epoxy and the other with Gorilla glue. Waited about two weeks and did my destruction test. First I turned down both pieces to reveal the glue line. Surprise ! The Gorilla glued adhered to the core a lot better than the epoxy. On the twist/torque test neither pieces could be moved and on the impact test neither piece could be moved. I use Gorilla glue on cores.
I've tried epoxy and Gorilla glue and wasn't sure which was best so I glued
up two forearm pieces, one with epoxy and the other with Gorilla glue. Waited about two weeks and did my destruction test. First I turned down both pieces to reveal the glue line. Surprise ! The Gorilla glued adhered to the core a lot better than the epoxy. On the twist/torque test neither pieces could be moved and on the impact test neither piece could be moved. I use Gorilla glue on cores.
Eric Wynne
Banned
The epoxy used to assemble golf clubs is designed to bond steel , with much elasticity to absorb impact ... It is a bit overkill for cue assembly , as a cue will never be abused as a golf club is ... Try DynaCraft , as GolfSmith now has a different formula that is black and the Dynacraft is the old formula that compliments wood color ... If you use heat to thin , it will weaken the bond as it becomes more brittle ... I used to assemble custom frequency matched sets of golf clubs and had to study an encyclopedia of adhesives to learn their properties , comes in handy ever so often ... Your clearance of the core warrants how much adhesive takes ... I make a slot for ease of application and assembly ...It is a 24hr cure , able to handle 1 1/2 to 2 hrs depending on temp ... It takes a torch to debond for sure ...
Holding power
If it is good enough to hold a plug in a shaft on a rethread job should be fine for a core.
John
If it is good enough to hold a plug in a shaft on a rethread job should be fine for a core.
John
Hmmm. I don't core- I probably never will.
But, if I did, I'd probably be leaning toward good old-fashioned wood glue. Unless you are gluing something REALLY oily, that traditionally doesn't take wood glue, I find it hard to beat wood glue on (most) woods.
That being said, if it was oily, I'd wash the cavity with Acetone right before gluing. Then I would use West system with the slowest hardener you can get (I don't remember which that is 206 maybe?).
Anyway, in either case, use a boring bar to cut some grooves in the cavity around the circumfrence, and also 'broach' with the boring bar to make some releif grooves for air. The consistency of the glue determines the size of the releif grooves. Make similar, but not perfectly matching, grooves on the dowel.
Coat the dowel end to end with glue and also slather the cavity (cheap acid brush). Twist while assembling.
If you get air pockets with this method, you need to work on thechnique a bit. A lead in chamfer in the cavity and a chamfer on the dowel will help reduce the 'piston' affect forcing all the glue out the other end.
If done right, it will be a serious mess to clean up...:thumbup:
But, if I did, I'd probably be leaning toward good old-fashioned wood glue. Unless you are gluing something REALLY oily, that traditionally doesn't take wood glue, I find it hard to beat wood glue on (most) woods.
That being said, if it was oily, I'd wash the cavity with Acetone right before gluing. Then I would use West system with the slowest hardener you can get (I don't remember which that is 206 maybe?).
Anyway, in either case, use a boring bar to cut some grooves in the cavity around the circumfrence, and also 'broach' with the boring bar to make some releif grooves for air. The consistency of the glue determines the size of the releif grooves. Make similar, but not perfectly matching, grooves on the dowel.
Coat the dowel end to end with glue and also slather the cavity (cheap acid brush). Twist while assembling.
If you get air pockets with this method, you need to work on thechnique a bit. A lead in chamfer in the cavity and a chamfer on the dowel will help reduce the 'piston' affect forcing all the glue out the other end.
If done right, it will be a serious mess to clean up...:thumbup:
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I thought that most of the cuemakers used wood glue for your coring:frown: .... but if this is not true, What use have wood glue in cuemaking now?
I have many doubts now
- For ferrules (phenolic+ wood).........epoxy or wood glue?
- For Points (wood+wood)..............epoxy or wood glue?
- For pins......................................epoxy ?
- For coring....................................epoxy or wood glue?
- For butt coring..............................epoxy or wood glue?
I have many doubts now
- For ferrules (phenolic+ wood).........epoxy or wood glue?
- For Points (wood+wood)..............epoxy or wood glue?
- For pins......................................epoxy ?
- For coring....................................epoxy or wood glue?
- For butt coring..............................epoxy or wood glue?
Epoxy is not such a bad thing! Especially West system, which was designed for wood (it is boat builder's epoxy).
Now, with that being said, it is true that epoxy will bridge a larger gap than wood glue, and do it with a stronger bond than wood glue can do.
HOWEVER, especially in a cue, the clearances should be VERY tight, and there would be no reason why wood glue would not work (for coring at least). My first cue is held together with wood glue in the splice.
You must also keep in mind that wood glue does not bond to end grain. It is better than hide glue, but not much. The reason a full splice was developed was because additional surface area, with long grain, was needed for the glue to hold, back when the best we had was hide glue.
Epoxy bonds end grain about as well as long grain. In a cue, where there are a LOT of face to face joints (in typical construction) it is critical to have a sound bond on the end grain. When building guitars, I did some testing for myself, and I can assure you that wood glue is DAMN strong on long grain- stronger than the wood. However, it's bond is almost non-existent on end grain. Epoxy is the solution here.
And the metal bits (joint pins, collars, brass inserts) all need epoxy to bond properly, because wood glue will not hold these materials. I do suggest either knurling threads and/or grit blasting them before glue-up to increase surface area (but it usually is not needed).
Hope that puts your mind at ease a bit...
Now, with that being said, it is true that epoxy will bridge a larger gap than wood glue, and do it with a stronger bond than wood glue can do.
HOWEVER, especially in a cue, the clearances should be VERY tight, and there would be no reason why wood glue would not work (for coring at least). My first cue is held together with wood glue in the splice.
You must also keep in mind that wood glue does not bond to end grain. It is better than hide glue, but not much. The reason a full splice was developed was because additional surface area, with long grain, was needed for the glue to hold, back when the best we had was hide glue.
Epoxy bonds end grain about as well as long grain. In a cue, where there are a LOT of face to face joints (in typical construction) it is critical to have a sound bond on the end grain. When building guitars, I did some testing for myself, and I can assure you that wood glue is DAMN strong on long grain- stronger than the wood. However, it's bond is almost non-existent on end grain. Epoxy is the solution here.
And the metal bits (joint pins, collars, brass inserts) all need epoxy to bond properly, because wood glue will not hold these materials. I do suggest either knurling threads and/or grit blasting them before glue-up to increase surface area (but it usually is not needed).
Hope that puts your mind at ease a bit...
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Epoxy is not such a bad thing! Especially West system, which was designed for wood (it is boat builder's epoxy).
Now, with that being said, it is true that epoxy will bridge a larger gap than wood glue, and do it with a stronger bond than wood glue can do.
HOWEVER, especially in a cue, the clearances should be VERY tight, and there would be no reason why wood glue would not work (for coring at least). My first cue is held together with wood glue in the splice.
You must also keep in mind that wood glue does not bond to end grain. It is better than hide glue, but not much. The reason a full splice was developed was because additional surface area, with long grain, was needed for the glue to hold, back when the best we had was hide glue.
Epoxy bonds end grain about as well as long grain. In a cue, where there are a LOT of face to face joints (in typical construction) it is critical to have a sound bond on the end grain. When building guitars, I did some testing for myself, and I can assure you that wood glue is DAMN strong on long grain- stronger than the wood. However, it's bond is almost non-existent on end grain. Epoxy is the solution here.
And the metal bits (joint pins, collars, brass inserts) all need epoxy to bond properly, because wood glue will not hold these materials. I do suggest either knurling threads and/or grit blasting them before glue-up to increase surface area (but it usually is not needed).
Hope that puts your mind at ease a bit...
Sounds good in theory, but for the reason stated that your tolerances need to be tight is exactly why wood glue is a poor choice for op. Wood glues will work for many other places in the cue but I would be scared to use it for coring.
<~~~JMHO.............
Good point Dave.
Wood glue as received is typically too thick for this type of work, which is why it may need to be thinned with distilled water to a useable thickness.
When I did wood binding on guitars (I hated to do plastic binding), I made a dilute wood glue solution to soften the wood and to adhere it.
It worked great! And: NO GLUE LINE!
But, if you goop on the wood glue from the bottle, it wil likely be quite a bit too thick. I guess I should have mentioned that.
And, the tolerance should be tight, but not a press-fit. If it is that tight, you need to make a bit more clearance. It should be a slip fit for coring (my opinion, but I don't core) which is about 0.003 clearance, or 0.0015 per side.
Wood glue as received is typically too thick for this type of work, which is why it may need to be thinned with distilled water to a useable thickness.
When I did wood binding on guitars (I hated to do plastic binding), I made a dilute wood glue solution to soften the wood and to adhere it.
It worked great! And: NO GLUE LINE!
But, if you goop on the wood glue from the bottle, it wil likely be quite a bit too thick. I guess I should have mentioned that.
And, the tolerance should be tight, but not a press-fit. If it is that tight, you need to make a bit more clearance. It should be a slip fit for coring (my opinion, but I don't core) which is about 0.003 clearance, or 0.0015 per side.
In A core
In a core you will need some way for the glue to squeeze out. You must have clearance for the wood to swell and the glue to reside. In the case of epoxy the gap can be wider than in the situation of wood glue. Granted 0.125" of epoxy is way too much gap but a sound 0.003-0.006 " is perfect for the epoxy to bite. Endgrain in a cue is very rarely the load bearing surface in a glue joint.
FWIW
Epoxy is not such a bad thing! Especially West system, which was designed for wood (it is boat builder's epoxy).
Now, with that being said, it is true that epoxy will bridge a larger gap than wood glue, and do it with a stronger bond than wood glue can do.
HOWEVER, especially in a cue, the clearances should be VERY tight, and there would be no reason why wood glue would not work (for coring at least). My first cue is held together with wood glue in the splice.
You must also keep in mind that wood glue does not bond to end grain. It is better than hide glue, but not much. The reason a full splice was developed was because additional surface area, with long grain, was needed for the glue to hold, back when the best we had was hide glue.
Epoxy bonds end grain about as well as long grain. In a cue, where there are a LOT of face to face joints (in typical construction) it is critical to have a sound bond on the end grain. When building guitars, I did some testing for myself, and I can assure you that wood glue is DAMN strong on long grain- stronger than the wood. However, it's bond is almost non-existent on end grain. Epoxy is the solution here.
And the metal bits (joint pins, collars, brass inserts) all need epoxy to bond properly, because wood glue will not hold these materials. I do suggest either knurling threads and/or grit blasting them before glue-up to increase surface area (but it usually is not needed).
Hope that puts your mind at ease a bit...
In a core you will need some way for the glue to squeeze out. You must have clearance for the wood to swell and the glue to reside. In the case of epoxy the gap can be wider than in the situation of wood glue. Granted 0.125" of epoxy is way too much gap but a sound 0.003-0.006 " is perfect for the epoxy to bite. Endgrain in a cue is very rarely the load bearing surface in a glue joint.
FWIW
This is true- however any side load at all causes the butt-joints (end grain glue-up) to receive tensile stress (and compressive on the opposite side which is usually not a problem). This is one of the reasons I dislike "short splice" cues, and why a lot of the older ones develop 'clicks' and other noises. That glue line (which is typically very thin, and not absorbed into the glassy-smooth turned end grain) fails. The cue is still plenty structurally sound, but I don't like those noises. It can happen to anyone; so if I can avoid it, I do. The newer epoxies are far superior to those from 30 years ago however- this is a given.
Like I said- I don't like coring. I REALLY don't like face joints. When I did the tenons on my cue I went as wide as I dared to minimize the reliance on the end face for bonding. Normally, the butt cap and sleeve tenon is only 0.625; however I made mine at 0.900. Any larger and you would see the purple heart through the white delrin!
Threading is a good thing too, because it pre-loads the face joint in an compressive state. You have to REALLY bend it off line to get it to crack then. A lot of makers are doing this, and it is (in my opinion) the best way to make the joint, if you have to. The tenoned 'extension' on my cue is at the end of the wrap- I think it is important regardless of anything else, to have a continuous piece of wood extending from the splice (if there is one, or the joint if not) to the end of the handle. I just feel it offers better feed back to the player that way. Not everyone agrees with me, but that's OK too.But this was about coring. and I agree that there needs to be a reasonable gap for the glue. I pointed this out last post.:smile:
You would undoubtedly get conflicting answers to each of these questions except for pins. Chuck Starkey is probably one of the few installing joint pins with wood glue, but then again, his pins are wood... You might also think that ferrules would be an area reserved for epoxy, but I have heard more than one person say they use wood glue on ferrules because it does what it needs to do, and removes cleanly during a new ferrule installation.
There have been other threads about epoxy vs wood glue for coring if anyone cares to search for them.
Mr H
Like I said- I don't like coring. I REALLY don't like face joints. When I did the tenons on my cue I went as wide as I dared to minimize the reliance on the end face for bonding.
CG, imo the end faces are only registers. The tenon and the threaded stud would have to move for that face to have a gap. There are ways to make sure that never happens.
Normally, the butt cap and sleeve tenon is only 0.625; however I made mine at 0.900.
Most butt cap tenon I know are 3/4. I like 7/8 myself unless a fancy ring needs to go below the wrap.
CG, imo the end faces are only registers. The tenon and the threaded stud would have to move for that face to have a gap. There are ways to make sure that never happens.
Normally, the butt cap and sleeve tenon is only 0.625; however I made mine at 0.900.
Most butt cap tenon I know are 3/4. I like 7/8 myself unless a fancy ring needs to go below the wrap.
Glue
Here is the breakdown FWIW.
Ferrules (or any disimilar materials such as joint sleeves) EPOXY
Points (or any clamped wood-to wood surface) Titebond 3
Pins EPOXY also thread inserts
Coring (any kind) Gorilla glue because it expands and penetrates better than epoxy for THIS operation. Of course your butt cap is threaded, right?
Here is the breakdown FWIW.
Ferrules (or any disimilar materials such as joint sleeves) EPOXY
Points (or any clamped wood-to wood surface) Titebond 3
Pins EPOXY also thread inserts
Coring (any kind) Gorilla glue because it expands and penetrates better than epoxy for THIS operation. Of course your butt cap is threaded, right?
Interesting thread. Dumb question: Would your answers be the same if you cored with a phenolic rod rather than a wooden dowel? 