Best offense is a great defense right? (strategy question)

G

glfgd82

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ok so I've really started studying a local older player who plays everyday and is easily the best around here, he's not a boastful guy at all and just prefers to play his heart out and stay out of the spotlight for the most part.

I've watched him play every chance I get to and one thing that he does 100% of the time is use his "safety" break when he breaks. By that I am referring to him breaking from center table with just enough follow to cause the cueball to stay on the opposite end of the one ball. I talked to him about it and he basically said if he makes a ball and is hooked, its an easy push-out, if not then he's still shooting and can either run out what he can and play safe, or play an immediate safe after the break. To put it lightly, the guy is GREAT on the table and I've really started thinking about his style of play and trying to incorporate it into my game itself. With his break he can pretty much set the tone of the rack/match by either hooking the person out of the gate, or leaving them a tough shot if he doesnt make a ball, essentially the one shot of the game that for 95% of us cannot swing the game/set in our favor, he is able to dictate not only his pace, but the pace of the player who he is playing, its really frustrating to be hooked off the break almost 90% of the time he doesnt make a ball on the break, and the other 10% its a full table shot, usually a cut or tricky combo.

I'm still working on what break to commit to, right now I'm breaking great, leaving the CB in center table and making a ball 2/3 of the time right now, but when you miss leaving the CB in an accessable spot, your not really dictating how your opponent is playing. That all of this ramble I have, just trying to get opinions from the others about this type of play.
 
Offense is best

I agree with Black Ball.

None of the pro players use this strategy.

I used to play an old guy (late 60's early 70's) all the time when I was younger and could make any shot on the table. He used to try to play defense all the time to make up for his deteriorating shot making abilitites. He could 3 foul me to win some games but most of the times I came out ahead.
 
See thats the thing guys, he can break and run at will, his shotmaking is superb and this total game is ungodly when he plays at 3/4 speed (he never is forced to really play anymore). I've seen him practice many times and watched him break and run out over and over again in a row, but when he plays others he knows he can beat them mentally right from the start and what he does in the first game will eventually play a part in the 5 game and so on. I've seen it works, but I'm trying to figure out in the long run what works better, run and gun, or slow mental torture...lol
 
glfgd82 said:
[...] if he makes a ball and is hooked, its an easy push-out, if not then he's still shooting and can either run out what he can and play safe, or play an immediate safe after the break. [...]
[...] by either hooking the person out of the gate, or leaving them a tough shot if he doesnt make a ball, [...]

its really frustrating to be hooked off the break almost 90% of the time he doesnt make a ball on the break, and the other 10% its a full table shot, usually a cut or tricky combo.
[...]
Click to expand...

Do you see the asymmetry in your comments? Do you note that you don't talk about him trying tough cuts, tricky combos, and long low-percentage shots?

You're faced with basically the same layouts when he doesn't make a ball as he has when he makes a ball. Yet you're positive about his options and negative about your own.

Forget his break. You need to study his decisions on the next shot.

mike page
fargo
 
mikepage said:
Do you see the asymmetry in your comments? Do you note that you don't talk about him trying tough cuts, tricky combos, and long low-percentage shots?

You're faced with basically the same layouts when he doesn't make a ball as he has when he makes a ball. Yet you're positive about his options and negative about your own.

Forget his break. You need to study his decisions on the next shot.

mike page
fargo
Click to expand...

Mike,

I have studied that part of it, if he is hooked or has a "tough shot" where his is not certain he can make it AND get shape, he will either play another safe, or he will push out to a spot where either he gets his opponent to bite and try the shot (usually resulting in him getting back to the table), or if they pass, its in a spot where he can play a better safety. I have watched him play for some time now, and instead of trying to run racks, he breaks down his opponents mentally and from everyone I have talked to who plays him, first and formost they note how he pretty much controls their game, and secondly they note his shotmaking (which is amazing). Many who play him on a regular basis, credit their wins over others around here to him because of the situations he puts them in both on the table and in their heads, just a neat aspect that I'm trying to incorporate into my game.
 
glfgd82 , How do the players that he does this to compare to him.Maybe he's doing this because he doesn't believe they are capable of running out from a tough position or have the skills to kick and get safe.
 
Allen- I consider myself a solid B player after 3 months back, the guys who he absolutely drains are guys who beat up on me quite easily, and they all say the same thing after playing him, he forces you to play the game he wants, which is usually the total opposite of what your comfortable with, and once you adapt, he changes it up a bit and hits you another way. These are A and A+ players, one incident I seen recently he KILLED a really good player (probably top 5 in town) beat him 7-0/7-1/7-0, totally insane watching it all happen, hes a billiard player as well, and its not unusual to see him run 7-10 in a row when he's grooved in, so his kick-outs and safe's on a pool table are superb.

So yes he does play lower players like myself, but he plays the same game with the much better players and still gets everything to work for him.
 
I've been playing the game of 9 ball for quite some time now. I even wrote a 4 Volume Book Set on the subject and I completely disagree with your interpretation of this strategy.

This guy's strategy will not work on everybody. This strategy will only get you so far when playing the game of 9 ball. At the level that I play the game, you better be able to string some racks together - if he lucks me safe off the break, I have a push out and I am smart enough to know what to do in most situations. If he's going to beat me he better be able to do it from the break because when I get at the table I'm coming to stay for as long as possible. As far as I'm concerned he can sit there and watch me for all I care. He may be able to win games against weaker players, but that strategy would come back to bite him in the a$$ against any top player.

The key to great 9 ball is the be able to make a ball off the break and keep the cue ball with the one ball. After that you need to run the balls, then repeat as many times as necessary. As a player I don't want my opponent at the table at all - unless I have locked him up tight. As long as my opponent is shooting he has a chance to win - no matter what he is faced with. I've been on both ends of spectacular shots - its great when your the guy making the shot - but it sucks when your watching it from the chair. When I am in a groove you won't see anything tricky or spectacular - that is by design and necessity. The best players make the game look extremely easy - which is why I studied the way that Buddy Hall played the game for hours on end - for years.

Looking back on the last 25 years, I go back to a time when I was impressed by players at my local pool hall. In retrospect, even the best local players had flaws in their game that prevented them from playing at the highest level of the game. A lot of the guys were trapped in dead end gambling rings and none of them improved very much (from what I saw). I made the decision a long time ago that I did not want to play like any of those local guys. I wanted to play like Cisero Murphy, Mike Carella, Richie Ambrose, Steve Mizerak, Buddy Hall and Louie Roberts. At different periods of time I stalked all of these guys and examined the way they operated from head to toe - and ... this is VERY IMPORTANT - I asked a lot of questions - respectfully and I listened intently to their answers.

Even today I spend hours reviewing dvd's and video of the greatest players in the game. I have yet to see any of them use this strategy, nor would I recommend this to anyone.
 
Blackjack said:
I have yet to see any of them use this strategy, nor would I recommend this to anyone.
Click to expand...

Blackjack,
I totally agree. The level of offense and kicking ability among the top pro's is just fearsome. If they can see the first ball, they're odds on to win the rack. If they can't see it, they can push somewhere where they have a fighting chance. Seems a losing strategy.

Now, say you are not a top pro; but a very good player; how do you like the strategy against an inferior player????
 
Williebetmore said:
Blackjack,
I totally agree. The level of offense and kicking ability among the top pro's is just fearsome. If they can see the first ball, they're odds on to win the rack. If they can't see it, they can push somewhere where they have a fighting chance. Seems a losing strategy.

Now, say you are not a top pro; but a very good player; how do you like the strategy against an inferior player????
Click to expand...

Willie
it all goes back to something The Miz told me when I was 15 years old. He said and I quote..."There's nothing that says you have to give the other guy a fighting chance."

I have never forgotten that. It doesn't matter who you are playing - make sure you get out and do so by exhibiting excellence whenever you are at the table no matter who is sitting in the chair. I hope that answers your question.
 
Blackjack- Trust me, I have seen him play the best and he wins, plain and simple, Bucky Bell was in town recently and would not step foot near a table he was at, and would not let either of his "road players" step up and play, you can think all you want and toot your own horn about your greatness, but I have seen many styles of greatness come against him, and even those who win say its quite a grind against his style, he can run racks all day long, I'm not saying he cannot run and gun, but he prefers to make the set a grind, tough shots and a mental game, adjusted for who hes playing.
 
glfgd82 said:
Blackjack- Trust me, I have seen him play the best and he wins, plain and simple, Bucky Bell was in town recently and would not step foot near a table he was at, and would not let either of his "road players" step up and play, you can think all you want and toot your own horn about your greatness, but I have seen many styles of greatness come against him, and even those who win say its quite a grind against his style, he can run racks all day long, I'm not saying he cannot run and gun, but he prefers to make the set a grind, tough shots and a mental game, adjusted for who hes playing.
Click to expand...

Listen, you asked for an opinion and I gave it. I think that the strategy you described would work against B level league players but it would be ineffective against somebody that knows how to effectively get themself out of trouble. There is a strategy to knock grinders out of their rhythm just like there is a strategy knock fast players out of their rhythm. If he's beating everybody that he plays then that means he's playing the wrong people - plain and simple.

LOL!!! Just because a certain road player didn't play him does not mean that they were intimidated by him. Road players choose their battles carefully and they probably decided that:

a) either he wasn't worth the trouble, or

b) if he is as good as you say, they will steer people away from him -or

c) steer people to him - either trying to stall his action or raise his bankroll for a kill somewhere down the line.

I'm sure all of that flew right over his head and yours, but then again I'm only passing along good advice - not tooting my own horn about my greatness. :rolleyes:
 
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