best player ever?
- Thread starter jimmyquinella
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I read that enough.hondo said:
If Efren and Fats played in the same room, most would watch Efren.
Fats would be loud and b.s'ng around but people would still watch Efren.
You want entertainment? Match up Ronnie Allen and Keith.
That'd be like Ali-Frazier.
fast larry
Banned
Who is Bright Path?
QUOTE=Joseph Cues]Minnesota Fats a top 5'r?
Larry, why are you prefacing your number 5 pick?
Efren would have robbed him.
A top 10 list without Efren's name there somewhere is a crime.
Hoppe, Greenleaf, Mosconi, Efren, Crane, Sigel, Hall, Mizerak, Strickland...[/QUOTE]
FL RESPONDS;
Oh Yeah, In Johnston city the Efren of his day was Ritchie Florence, there was no way Fatty could take him but when the smoke cleared Richey was out the door and Fatty had his 25K in his sock.
You did not understand what I was trying to say sir; star power has to always be in the equation. Better basket ball players will come along but none will exceed the star power of Jordon. No golfer exceeded the star power of Bobby Jones in the 20's until Tiger Woods arrived.
You are stuck with the pool mentality sir, think beyond pool. This is not a pool list, it is a best player list, a cueist list, and there is a world beyond 9 ball or 1 hole guys. Tell me how many world titles Efrens won, end of debate that is why he is not on my top 10.
I realized putting fatty in that list would ignite a controversy. That is good, make it a civilized polite debate and I shall take part in it. Do not make this another get Larry thread, I am sick of that S***. Let's put a lid on that OK> If you want Efren on my list, prove to me other than Fatty, how he exceeded any of the other 9 on that list. When you go into that study, you see sir; he does fall short of the top 10. He sure as hell would be in my top 20. You have seen me post dozens of time showing admiration for Efren and saying he's the best player today. He is, but the truth is he can't carry Willie Hoppe's jock strap into a billiard parlor, he is a short stop compared to the boy wonder sir. Is Mark McGuire a better ball player or home run hitter than Babe Ruth, hell yes, that is a given. Who was the bigger star and who has the biggest name recognition today, the Bambino?
Here is the problem; you do any survey with just players, average Joes, board people and normal pool players. They vote for who they know. They don't vote for some ghost and dead guy they never saw play. They vote for who they see on TV today. You can’t run any list with this group and ever convince them Efren is not on this list, they go by emotion and not from records and pure logic. That is why none of you can ever put Lindgrum on your top 10 list because you are going Walter who, who in the F was that guy. You don't know and you could care less about finding out.
Who was the greatest athlete in the first half of the last century, 1900 to 1950? They did such a list and when you run two lists, let the fans pick they pick current stars every time. When you get a billiard expert and historian like me and put several more like me on a panel we carefully weigh all players in that era and select the best one by merit. We know what each one did. We study their achievements and their records and wins. You fans do not do this. How many of you actually know how many world titles Efren won.
If you do not know the answer to that questions sir, May I suggest you then are not qualified to venture even an opinion of why he should be on such a list. Please do not be offended by this, but it is the truth I give you. You want to do a popularity list, good, do that sir. That is not what my list is. I would put my worse enemy on my list if he deserved to be on it. In 1950 the fans of course voted the greatest athlete of the century to be Babe Ruth when Ty Cobb could play circles around his fat ass.
The experts, the sports writers, the ones who knew, who did they choose as the greatest athlete of the half century from all sports world wide. Yes they chose correctly. He is my choice as well.
His name was Bright Path; he was a simple American Indian. He was not on any of the fans list. His greatest victories were in 1912, by 1950 he had been forgotten by all but the experts and historians who never forgot his greatness and how he thrilled the world, in 1912 when the King of Sweden said sir, you are the greatest athlete on earth, hanging gold Olympic medals around his neck and placing a green wreath on his head. He bowed, looked up and said thanks King.
QUOTE=Joseph Cues]Minnesota Fats a top 5'r?
Larry, why are you prefacing your number 5 pick?
Efren would have robbed him.
A top 10 list without Efren's name there somewhere is a crime.
Hoppe, Greenleaf, Mosconi, Efren, Crane, Sigel, Hall, Mizerak, Strickland...[/QUOTE]
FL RESPONDS;
Oh Yeah, In Johnston city the Efren of his day was Ritchie Florence, there was no way Fatty could take him but when the smoke cleared Richey was out the door and Fatty had his 25K in his sock.
You did not understand what I was trying to say sir; star power has to always be in the equation. Better basket ball players will come along but none will exceed the star power of Jordon. No golfer exceeded the star power of Bobby Jones in the 20's until Tiger Woods arrived.
You are stuck with the pool mentality sir, think beyond pool. This is not a pool list, it is a best player list, a cueist list, and there is a world beyond 9 ball or 1 hole guys. Tell me how many world titles Efrens won, end of debate that is why he is not on my top 10.
I realized putting fatty in that list would ignite a controversy. That is good, make it a civilized polite debate and I shall take part in it. Do not make this another get Larry thread, I am sick of that S***. Let's put a lid on that OK> If you want Efren on my list, prove to me other than Fatty, how he exceeded any of the other 9 on that list. When you go into that study, you see sir; he does fall short of the top 10. He sure as hell would be in my top 20. You have seen me post dozens of time showing admiration for Efren and saying he's the best player today. He is, but the truth is he can't carry Willie Hoppe's jock strap into a billiard parlor, he is a short stop compared to the boy wonder sir. Is Mark McGuire a better ball player or home run hitter than Babe Ruth, hell yes, that is a given. Who was the bigger star and who has the biggest name recognition today, the Bambino?
Here is the problem; you do any survey with just players, average Joes, board people and normal pool players. They vote for who they know. They don't vote for some ghost and dead guy they never saw play. They vote for who they see on TV today. You can’t run any list with this group and ever convince them Efren is not on this list, they go by emotion and not from records and pure logic. That is why none of you can ever put Lindgrum on your top 10 list because you are going Walter who, who in the F was that guy. You don't know and you could care less about finding out.
Who was the greatest athlete in the first half of the last century, 1900 to 1950? They did such a list and when you run two lists, let the fans pick they pick current stars every time. When you get a billiard expert and historian like me and put several more like me on a panel we carefully weigh all players in that era and select the best one by merit. We know what each one did. We study their achievements and their records and wins. You fans do not do this. How many of you actually know how many world titles Efren won.
If you do not know the answer to that questions sir, May I suggest you then are not qualified to venture even an opinion of why he should be on such a list. Please do not be offended by this, but it is the truth I give you. You want to do a popularity list, good, do that sir. That is not what my list is. I would put my worse enemy on my list if he deserved to be on it. In 1950 the fans of course voted the greatest athlete of the century to be Babe Ruth when Ty Cobb could play circles around his fat ass.
The experts, the sports writers, the ones who knew, who did they choose as the greatest athlete of the half century from all sports world wide. Yes they chose correctly. He is my choice as well.
His name was Bright Path; he was a simple American Indian. He was not on any of the fans list. His greatest victories were in 1912, by 1950 he had been forgotten by all but the experts and historians who never forgot his greatness and how he thrilled the world, in 1912 when the King of Sweden said sir, you are the greatest athlete on earth, hanging gold Olympic medals around his neck and placing a green wreath on his head. He bowed, looked up and said thanks King.
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[Let me guess- that was Jim Thorpe's real name?
Let me guQUOTE=fast larry]Oh Yeah, In Johnston city the Efren of his day was Richie Florence, there was no way Fatty could take him but when the smoke cleared Richey was out the door and Fatty had his 25K in his sock.
You did not understand what I was trying to say sir, star power has to always be in the equation. Better backet ball players will come along but none will exceed the star power of Jordon. No golfer exceeded the star power of Bobby Jones in the 20's until Tiger Woods arrived.
You are stuck with the pool mentality sir, think beyond pool. This is not a pool list, it is a best player list, a cueist list, there is a world beyond 9 ball or 1 hole guys. Tell me how many world titles Efrens won, end of debate, that is why he is not on my top 10.
I realized putting fatty in that list would ignite a controversy. That is good, make it a civilized polite debate and I shall take part in it. Do not make this another get Larry thread, I am sick of that S***. Let's put a lid on that OK> If you want Efren on my list, prove to me other than Fatty, how he exceeded any of the other 9 on that list. When you go into that study, you see sir, he does fall short of the top 10. He sure as hell would be in my top 20. You have seen me post dozens of time showing admiration for Efren and saying he's the best player today. He is, but the truth is he can't carry Willie Hoppes jock strap into a billiard parlor, he is a short stop compared to the boy wonder sir. Is Mark McGuire a better ball player or home run hitter than Babe Ruth, hell yes, that is a given. Who was the bigger star and who has the biggest name recognition today, the Bambino.
Here is the problem, you do any survey with just players, average joes, board people and normal pool players. They vote for who they know. They don't vote for some ghost and dead guy they never saw play. They vote for who they see on TV today. You cant run any list with this group and ever convince them Efren is not on this list, they go by emotion and not from records and pure logic. That is why none of you can ever put Lindgrum on your top 10 list because you are going Walter who, who in the F was that guy. You don't know and you could care less about finding out.
Who was the greatest athlete in the first half of the last century, 1900 to 1950. They did such a list and when you run two lists, let the fans pick they pick current stars every time. When you get a billiard expert and historian like me and put several more like me on a panel we carefully weight all players in that era and select the best one by merit. We know what each one did. In 1950 the fans of course voted the greatest athlete of the century to be Babe Ruth when Ty Cobb could play circles around his fat ass.
The experts, the sports writers, the ones who knew, who did they choose as the greatest athlete of the half century from all sports world wide. Yes they chose correclty. He is my choice as well.
His name was Bright Path, he was a simple American indian. He was not on any of the fans list.[/QUOTE]
Let me guQUOTE=fast larry]Oh Yeah, In Johnston city the Efren of his day was Richie Florence, there was no way Fatty could take him but when the smoke cleared Richey was out the door and Fatty had his 25K in his sock.
You did not understand what I was trying to say sir, star power has to always be in the equation. Better backet ball players will come along but none will exceed the star power of Jordon. No golfer exceeded the star power of Bobby Jones in the 20's until Tiger Woods arrived.
You are stuck with the pool mentality sir, think beyond pool. This is not a pool list, it is a best player list, a cueist list, there is a world beyond 9 ball or 1 hole guys. Tell me how many world titles Efrens won, end of debate, that is why he is not on my top 10.
I realized putting fatty in that list would ignite a controversy. That is good, make it a civilized polite debate and I shall take part in it. Do not make this another get Larry thread, I am sick of that S***. Let's put a lid on that OK> If you want Efren on my list, prove to me other than Fatty, how he exceeded any of the other 9 on that list. When you go into that study, you see sir, he does fall short of the top 10. He sure as hell would be in my top 20. You have seen me post dozens of time showing admiration for Efren and saying he's the best player today. He is, but the truth is he can't carry Willie Hoppes jock strap into a billiard parlor, he is a short stop compared to the boy wonder sir. Is Mark McGuire a better ball player or home run hitter than Babe Ruth, hell yes, that is a given. Who was the bigger star and who has the biggest name recognition today, the Bambino.
Here is the problem, you do any survey with just players, average joes, board people and normal pool players. They vote for who they know. They don't vote for some ghost and dead guy they never saw play. They vote for who they see on TV today. You cant run any list with this group and ever convince them Efren is not on this list, they go by emotion and not from records and pure logic. That is why none of you can ever put Lindgrum on your top 10 list because you are going Walter who, who in the F was that guy. You don't know and you could care less about finding out.
Who was the greatest athlete in the first half of the last century, 1900 to 1950. They did such a list and when you run two lists, let the fans pick they pick current stars every time. When you get a billiard expert and historian like me and put several more like me on a panel we carefully weight all players in that era and select the best one by merit. We know what each one did. In 1950 the fans of course voted the greatest athlete of the century to be Babe Ruth when Ty Cobb could play circles around his fat ass.
The experts, the sports writers, the ones who knew, who did they choose as the greatest athlete of the half century from all sports world wide. Yes they chose correclty. He is my choice as well.
His name was Bright Path, he was a simple American indian. He was not on any of the fans list.
[/QUOTE]First Efren Reyes is my favorite all time cueist. He would be at the top of my list. But this time Larry I think you are absolutely correct. We dont need any negative things here. We should see beyond "pool". Fats brought a notoriety and interest in the game like no other. Im talking about the general public. Not just the US but the world over. This was a time when there was no tv in every room in the house. His book the Bank shot was the book to get on your shelf because all the other books where dry billiard instructionals that only an enthusisat would get. But Fatty perked your interest in the life of pool. He made you want to take up the game. I wonder how many great players are around today because they were influenced by him. I am in so agreement with your list. Walter Linsdsrom was one of the greatest and Steve Davis broke the barriers in snooker. Without him there would be no Steve Hendry or a Ronnie O Sullivan. We should read and study our history. Then we would know from whence we came.
fast larry
Banned
Joseph Cues said:I read that enough.
If Efren and Fats played in the same room, most would watch Efren.
Fats would be loud and b.s'ng around but people would still watch Efren.
You want entertainment? Match up Ronnie Allen and Keith.
That'd be like Ali-Frazier.
FL RESPONDS;
I'll give you a parallel to that, Willie Mosconi was a lot bigger star and bigger champion that Efren is or will ever become. When Fatty and Willie walked into a room, Fatty blew Willie out the door. Half of the time, Willie being totally ignored would actually walk out of the door in anger. He could never understand if he was the better player why everybody flocked to fatty and ignored him. Willie never got it, never understood it. It's star power, that is what attracts, not playing ability. We will never know, maybe your right, maybe I am wrong, it is an interesting debate.
Not a pool list but a cueist list?
How many world titles has Efren won? Four in my head.
1 World 9 ( some might argue two) and three World 8-Ball.
4 US Open Final appearances IN A ROW. Who has done that?
Which pro pool player played and beat a world 3-cushion champ some balkline and beat him?
You are confusing entertainer from pool player. The question was the best PLAYER of all time. Not entertainer.
Is Chi Chi Rodrigues better than Tiger?
How many world titles did Fatty win? Pls tell us how Fatty beat Ritchie.
Showed up hours late and got a spot?
You kinda shot yourself in the foot questioning how many world titles Efren has won, ignoring Fatty's record.
Btw, Billiards Digest made a list. Where was Fatty's name?
fast larry
Banned
Rickw said:
FL RESPONDS. YES SIR, YOU CAN'T COMPARE, IT IS A FOOL'S GAME.
Rickw said:
When I came up I began play on 10' 1912 Brunswick tables. Sir, the conditions back then made it more difficult to play than today. The game was much harder. We were on 5x10's with 4 l/2" pockets, Ivory cue ball which was heavy and easy to go out of round. Clay balls and cues that is not near as good as today. The rubber rails and the Simonis #1 cloth is about the same as today. The balls, the cues and tips and the rail rubber are all much better today.
If Greenleaf in 1920 ran 175 on his 10' table that would be a greater achievement than Efren today running 250 on a 9' table with bucket pockets.
Nobody in the last 40 years could touch any of those old records, so what does that tell you. What it tells me is the guys of the golden age were better players. That is a hot damn get down debate all on its own.
I was a disciple of Jimmy Ballard, the best teacher of his time in Golf. Jimmy said you cannot be called great, unless you take on and play and defeat all of the great players of your time. You must do that over a decade and usually dominate a good part of that time period. Jimmy's point is when Johnny Miller comes along and kicks everyone’s ass for 3 or 4 years and then loses it and can't break 80 or find a fairway any more, he never made Jimmy's great list. All you can do is rate who was great in their time, and then you have Jones, Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus and now Tiger. Sure Tiger beats all of them, but take him back to Jones in the 20's and hand him a wood shaft driver and find out real quick Jones cleans his clock. So the point is true, you cannot and should not compare athletes from era to ear, or even decade to
Sorry Josephs Cue. I am usually in agreement with you. But The Billiards Digest is not the last word in defing the status of pool. It is a commercial self promoting magazine. It reports the results of pool matches, which is why I subscribe. But its analysis and journalistic endeavors in regard to the sport is one of entertainment value only. Just because you dont make their list dont meant a thing to me. My opinion.
They are not the last word but they have no interest in promoting dead guys.yobagua said:
Larry is placing Fatty on his list b/c they were friends.
If Fatty and Buddy Hall were playing in the same state, different cities, I'd go see Buddy.
fast larry
Banned
yobagua said:
FL RESPONDS, YES PRECISLY, THEY DO HAVE VESTED INTERESTS, IF MIKE SIGELS MAIN SPONSOR IS SPENDING TWO THOUSAND A MONTH FOR ADS AND MIKE IS A STAFF WRITER ON THE MAG, DOES THAT NOT INSURE HIM A TOP 5 SPOT IN THEIR EYES. YES MIKE IS A TOP 10 GUY, I GRANT YOU THAT, BUT BD IS NOT IN ANY POSTITION TO EVER DO A UN BIASED LIST, I AM, I AM IN NOBODYS POCKET. Mike Panozzo should be on such a panel as should be Tom Shaw and Conrad Burkman and JR. THEY DID A POOL LIST, I INCLUDED ALL GAMES, SO OUR LISTS ARE DIFFERENT. THEY CALL THEM SELVES BILLIARDS DIGEST BUT SHOW NO BILLIARDS, ONLY POOL. Now and then they let Byrne toss some real billiards out in his column. I do like the magazine, BD and Inside pool are the two best now IMHO.
please take this as a friendly discussion
BD doesnt promote dead guys because they are interested in selling mags not the truth. You and I would vote for Efren because we have seen him play but we have never seen Hoppe or Lindstrom or Fatty in his prime, I am assuming. Take Larry's personality out of the equation. Fatty has done more for the interest in pool than anyone. I am hoping that Efren who in my opinion stands above every one else in playing the game will eventually reach this status himself.
BD doesnt promote dead guys because they are interested in selling mags not the truth. You and I would vote for Efren because we have seen him play but we have never seen Hoppe or Lindstrom or Fatty in his prime, I am assuming. Take Larry's personality out of the equation. Fatty has done more for the interest in pool than anyone. I am hoping that Efren who in my opinion stands above every one else in playing the game will eventually reach this status himself.
Joseph Cues said:They are not the last word but they have no interest in promoting dead guys.
Larry is placing Fatty on his list b/c they were friends.
If Fatty and Buddy Hall were playing in the same state, different cities, I'd go see Buddy.
OK, let's go by record then. What did Fatty win?yobagua said:
Which player has given up more weight on money matches and won more money than probably anyone?
A friend of mine told a story about Fatty. Sure he gambled but he ambushed the players. Showed hours late and changed the proposition on them. Old, old, old trick.
Buddy Hall, Rempe, Larry Schwartz and Miz have said Efren's one of the best ever. Nuff said.
Fatty did do a ton for the game but that does not equate to being one of the best PLAYERS of all time. Some people might puke at the mention of that.
fast larry
Banned
Joseph Cues said:They are not the last word but they have no interest in promoting dead guys.
Larry is placing Fatty on his list b/c they were friends.
If Fatty and Buddy Hall were playing in the same state, different cities, I'd go see Buddy.
FL RESPONDS, AND SO IT SHOULD BE, every player should pick his idol or hero and follow and support him. That is why I drive a Ford and you drive a Chevy, freedom of choice. Perhaps I was being biased on Fatty, but to be honest with you, the longer he is gone from us the more I realize how big he really was compared to what is on the scene today. Same on Caras and Mosconi as well.
fast larry
Banned
triple smart fats
FL RESPONDS, Go back and re read what I said and cut and paste where I wrote he was a great player. I did not, you are missing my point with all due respect here please.
Your question, I'LL ANSWER THAT, FATTY NEVER WON A TIN CUP. He did not play for tin cups, he said if he wants tin cups, he'll go down to the pawn shop and buy the ones these penguin champions hock. He only played for the cash, mean green, lettuce. He never entered a tournament, never played on any tour. He was not a penguin. He laughed at these guys, felt they were suckers. He said only a sausage plays for tin cups. He said I rather have the caaa sh.
Where did I ever say he was a great player, go back and read what I wrote.
So he won by coming in late, changing this or that around, rattling you. You have a big match with him the next day at noon. He pays a hooker to pretend just to be a regular gal who likes you and then picks you up at the bar, rides you long and hard all night long and puts you up wet, gets you drunk and stoned and then Mickey’s you. You show up at noon and lose your sock. Your head is on fire and you can't run 3 friggin balls, so you lose because you are so screwed up your don't know your zip code. That's not cheating, that's smart, and why he called him self triple smart Fats. That is what hustlers do, out smart you.
It was fun hanging around the guy in the afternoons when everyone went back to work and there was nobody in the joint but him and me. He would be hanging around waiting for the marks to get off work. I learned and paid for my lessons from him. He could take you out 6 ways to Sunday. Finally I said I'll play you only on one condition, if you say one word, you lose the entire match. If you have a question, you have to whisper it to the desk man. He would not play then. His constant distraction and jabbering at you was his greatest weapon.
He was a pool hustler who made more money than and became much more famous than Willie Mosconi. They both ended up in the hall of fame. Winning tin cups or running 500 balls has nothing to do with this. That is my point you all are missing here. Once that one sinks in for some, all I have to stay is it stings like a bitch, don't it boys.
Joseph Cues said:OK, let's go by record then. What did Fatty win?
Which player has given up more weight on money matches and won more money than probably anyone?
A friend of mine told a story about Fatty. Sure he gambled but he ambushed the players. Showed hours late and changed the proposition on them. Old, old, old trick.
Buddy Hall, Rempe, Larry Schwartz and Miz have said Efren's one of the best ever. Nuff said.
Fatty did do a ton for the game but that does not equate to being one of the best PLAYERS of all time. Some people might puke at the mention of that.
FL RESPONDS, Go back and re read what I said and cut and paste where I wrote he was a great player. I did not, you are missing my point with all due respect here please.
Your question, I'LL ANSWER THAT, FATTY NEVER WON A TIN CUP. He did not play for tin cups, he said if he wants tin cups, he'll go down to the pawn shop and buy the ones these penguin champions hock. He only played for the cash, mean green, lettuce. He never entered a tournament, never played on any tour. He was not a penguin. He laughed at these guys, felt they were suckers. He said only a sausage plays for tin cups. He said I rather have the caaa sh.
Where did I ever say he was a great player, go back and read what I wrote.
So he won by coming in late, changing this or that around, rattling you. You have a big match with him the next day at noon. He pays a hooker to pretend just to be a regular gal who likes you and then picks you up at the bar, rides you long and hard all night long and puts you up wet, gets you drunk and stoned and then Mickey’s you. You show up at noon and lose your sock. Your head is on fire and you can't run 3 friggin balls, so you lose because you are so screwed up your don't know your zip code. That's not cheating, that's smart, and why he called him self triple smart Fats. That is what hustlers do, out smart you.
It was fun hanging around the guy in the afternoons when everyone went back to work and there was nobody in the joint but him and me. He would be hanging around waiting for the marks to get off work. I learned and paid for my lessons from him. He could take you out 6 ways to Sunday. Finally I said I'll play you only on one condition, if you say one word, you lose the entire match. If you have a question, you have to whisper it to the desk man. He would not play then. His constant distraction and jabbering at you was his greatest weapon.
He was a pool hustler who made more money than and became much more famous than Willie Mosconi. They both ended up in the hall of fame. Winning tin cups or running 500 balls has nothing to do with this. That is my point you all are missing here. Once that one sinks in for some, all I have to stay is it stings like a bitch, don't it boys.
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Willie's ghost is gonna go after yo azz Larry.
Willie was more famous than Fatty.
Fatty was more infamous.
If Efren can't crack your top 10, Fatty has no place there either.
Willie was more famous than Fatty.
Fatty was more infamous.
If Efren can't crack your top 10, Fatty has no place there either.
I respect your list you respect mine.
What did Fatty win? He won the hearts and minds of people. People like Grady Mathews whom I have the utmost respect says Fatty was never a great player. I dont know Ive never seen him in his prime. But ask the people , no ask even general sports enthusiasts. Go to the World Series or the NBA Finals and ask the fans who Jim Rempe, or Buddy Hall, Larry Schwartz, or a Mizerak, {all guys I respect) and you will get a Huh? Who? But ask them who is Minnesota Fats was and they will not only tell you but have a story to tell about him as well. How many pool players had there own tv show or been on the Johnny Carson hosted Tonite Show. Im talking about people who influenced pool and made it into what it is today. Now I am a fan of excellence and skill but I have seldom read anything by a Nobel Prize winner of literature but I have read a lot of Patricia Cornwell, Zane Grey, Scott Turow, Conan Doyle, Jeffrey Deaver, etc. Its because of these guys that I might try something deeper but I would never puke if you called those people good writers.
What did Fatty win? He won the hearts and minds of people. People like Grady Mathews whom I have the utmost respect says Fatty was never a great player. I dont know Ive never seen him in his prime. But ask the people , no ask even general sports enthusiasts. Go to the World Series or the NBA Finals and ask the fans who Jim Rempe, or Buddy Hall, Larry Schwartz, or a Mizerak, {all guys I respect) and you will get a Huh? Who? But ask them who is Minnesota Fats was and they will not only tell you but have a story to tell about him as well. How many pool players had there own tv show or been on the Johnny Carson hosted Tonite Show. Im talking about people who influenced pool and made it into what it is today. Now I am a fan of excellence and skill but I have seldom read anything by a Nobel Prize winner of literature but I have read a lot of Patricia Cornwell, Zane Grey, Scott Turow, Conan Doyle, Jeffrey Deaver, etc. Its because of these guys that I might try something deeper but I would never puke if you called those people good writers.
Joseph Cues said:OK, let's go by record then. What did Fatty win?
Which player has given up more weight on money matches and won more money than probably anyone?
A friend of mine told a story about Fatty. Sure he gambled but he ambushed the players. Showed hours late and changed the proposition on them. Old, old, old trick.
Buddy Hall, Rempe, Larry Schwartz and Miz have said Efren's one of the best ever. Nuff said.
Fatty did do a ton for the game but that does not equate to being one of the best PLAYERS of all time. Some people might puke at the mention of that.
Is One Pocket influencing your lack of respect for Efren?
Fastlarry, Actually I agree with most of your list, and your rationale. When I picked Efren, Mosconi & Greenleaf, I was indeed thinking 'pool', not broader cue games. No argument from me on having Hoppe at the top, either.
That said, I'm not in agreement with your opinion on Efren. As I think about it, I'm wondering if your apparent lack of respect for Efren is an indirect reflection of what seems to be your lack of respect for the game of One Pocket in general. In your list of top 10, you ask us to broaden our horizons in your selection of players in a wide variety of cue games -- some of which are not exactly current popular cue sports -- yet when you speak about One Pocket, you seem to go into a narrow view yourself. --> Please note I have not read all of you posts, nor have I ever met you in person, so I could be wrong about your genuine One Pocket opinions, but it seems to me that I have here and there read in your posts a pattern of disparaging comments about One Pocket. Certainly you are entitled to your opinions, that I am not questioning in the slightest. I'm just wondering if that has influenced your lack of respect for Efren -- since I think it is fair to say that he is the acknowledged best One pocket player in the world at the moment.
Regarding Fatty -- I too am an admirer, but since the question was framed 'best player', certainly Fatty doesn't make that list. Most entertaining player, yes; best known player, yes; best hustler, maybe yes -- but as you said yourself, not near the top ten 'best player' -- so why even argue that one?
Cheers
Fastlarry, Actually I agree with most of your list, and your rationale. When I picked Efren, Mosconi & Greenleaf, I was indeed thinking 'pool', not broader cue games. No argument from me on having Hoppe at the top, either.
That said, I'm not in agreement with your opinion on Efren. As I think about it, I'm wondering if your apparent lack of respect for Efren is an indirect reflection of what seems to be your lack of respect for the game of One Pocket in general. In your list of top 10, you ask us to broaden our horizons in your selection of players in a wide variety of cue games -- some of which are not exactly current popular cue sports -- yet when you speak about One Pocket, you seem to go into a narrow view yourself. --> Please note I have not read all of you posts, nor have I ever met you in person, so I could be wrong about your genuine One Pocket opinions, but it seems to me that I have here and there read in your posts a pattern of disparaging comments about One Pocket. Certainly you are entitled to your opinions, that I am not questioning in the slightest. I'm just wondering if that has influenced your lack of respect for Efren -- since I think it is fair to say that he is the acknowledged best One pocket player in the world at the moment.
Regarding Fatty -- I too am an admirer, but since the question was framed 'best player', certainly Fatty doesn't make that list. Most entertaining player, yes; best known player, yes; best hustler, maybe yes -- but as you said yourself, not near the top ten 'best player' -- so why even argue that one?
Cheers