Best read for this year: talent, expert and practice

Solartje

the Brunswick BUG bit me
Silver Member
I got this link from a friend, and eventhough i've only had time to read the first 6 pages, its one of the best reads i had this year.

http://64.233.183.132/search?q=cach...+deliberate+practice&hl=nl&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=be

Talks about scientific research on the relation between supernatural talent - and practice vs innate and genetically transfered tallent.

IQ influence on sports, timelaps to reach plateau's, how to increase your maximum skill level, etc..

I also found the part about plateau's of evolution in skills very interesting.
Who didnt had a timeperiod where he just wouldn't get better...

a MUST READ.

I know its a long read, but just read the first 3 pages, and you won't be able to stop. i promise.
 
LOLCats

thank you for the contribution. I'm sure it's very interesting, it's also 40+ pages long. Certainly not a work friendly read, I'll try to read it from home. COuld I trouble you for some cliff notes if you took the time to read the whole thing already?

~D4\/\/G~
 
Sounds like a good read

Sounds like a good read and I'm going to take a look at it soon. I did want to make a quick comment about plateaus though. We all hit a few or even reverses for awhile. However, one interesting discovery I have made is that many plateaus are not real, only imaginary. We are making solid or rapid progress and then it slows for awhile and we feel we have hit a plateau which can be discouraging. When I carefully chart things though I often find that plateaus are really only periods of slower advancement, not complete stalls.

That might not sound like much of a difference but I found it huge for the mental game. If we genuinely hit a plateau for a significant period we can't help wondering if we have reached our personal limits. If we see that we are still growing just more slowly for the time being it is far easier to maintain a positive attitude.

Hu



Solartje said:
I got this link from a friend, and eventhough i've only had time to read the first 6 pages, its one of the best reads i had this year.

http://64.233.183.132/search?q=cach...+deliberate+practice&hl=nl&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=be

Talks about scientific research on the relation between supernatural talent - and practice vs innate and genetically transfered tallent.

IQ influence on sports, timelaps to reach plateau's, how to increase your maximum skill level, etc..

I also found the part about plateau's of evolution in skills very interesting.
Who didnt had a timeperiod where he just wouldn't get better...

a MUST READ.

I know its a long read, but just read the first 3 pages, and you won't be able to stop. i promise.
 
where does this fall with the prior thread about natural ability?

Sorry, I am not a patient reader.....Will someone who has read this tell me what the gist of this article says? There was a prior thread about "natural ability v.s. trained ability" on this forum....this seems to speak to that question....on which side does this fall? Thanks for your input......
 
I havent fully read it either.

didn't have enough time yet to start it, and the typing errors (all the t's are replaced by i's and l's..) and lack of the writer finding the spacebarr makes it hard. since im not native english, its even harder, but what i've read was very interesting.

one thing that was curious, was that it takes at least 10-12 years of dedicated training to become a master in something. They refere to top chess players and many other sports...
I think this also aplies for pool..

WAHCHECK: ps this read defently falls to the side of trained ability.

Shootingarts : The main plateau they talk about is the master limit. not the "in between plateau's". Just the final limit, and then they talk about how we can get beyound it, and why?

For example. If you are tiping a post, you won't type it at the maximum speed you could write it. Nobody writes every time at max speed. If we did every day, our average typing speed would increase alot faster...

They are really some very very interesting things that are forcing me to rethink about training in general, and how to train.

They talk about muscle memory, wich made me think about pool imediatly and made me post it here.

I know its a hard read, but the content is worth it. now i just need to find TIME !
 
maybe I'm stubborn, but....

I still think that a person who doesn't have inherent talent or extraordinary ability that another has, cannot reach the level that the gifted one does....Of course, the gifted one also has to practice and refine his talent, but I think the ordinary person can practice all he wants and not really be able to compete successfully with the gifted one.... as Charles Barkley said in the title of his book, "I could be wrong, but I don't think so..."
 
page 399

wahcheck said:
I still think that a person who doesn't have inherent talent or extraordinary ability that another has, cannot reach the level that the gifted one does....Of course, the gifted one also has to practice and refine his talent, but I think the ordinary person can practice all he wants and not really be able to compete successfully with the gifted one.... as Charles Barkley said in the title of his book, "I could be wrong, but I don't think so..."

At the base of page 399 the conclusion starts. After that there are enough highbrow references to please anyone.

I read the first few pages, skimmed and read a page here and there, and read the conclusion. These people believe that motivation and deliberate practice, practice with focus and a goal, are the major keys to success. Like me they point out Olympic gold medalists, the very best in the world at least on that day, who overcame huge handicaps to beat the very best, often multiple times.

These people specifically say that motivation and deliberate practice usually equals or surpasses those that start with greater gifts. They also seem to say that most people eventually reach the same level regardless of where they started if they are sufficiently motivated and practice constructively.

There are exceptions to every "rule" but they are few and far between. I have competed alongside hall of fame competitors and world champions in different sports. At the end of the day they are all just human beings and every one of them can be taken even when they are having a good day. They will win a higher percentage than most but they are not superhuman.

Hu
 
What a great find, Solartje, thanks for posting it. And thanks to Siz for finding a much more readable copy.

I'm with the authors when they say that long term dedicated practice is essential to reach expert class. At least for most of us humans. John Schmidt said on another thread that he ran 200 in straight pol 3 years after he started playing. That is an amazing feat that is so far beyond the norm it almost defies description. But how much practice did he do in that three years?
 
Neil said:
Quick summary of the article:

8. Those starting young in life have the advantage if they are still doing their endeavor later in life. The reason is quite simple- they have more time at it.

9. Those starting later can achieve a very high status. However, they cannot attain equal status to those that started young and are still practicing.

14. Just because you start late in life, doesn't mean you can't be great. But it isn't likely that you will become better than the best that has been doing it all his life.

15. It's not enough to just learn all the lessons. The best at some point reach a level that they come up with new ideas, and utilize them to acheive a higher status. (Efren is great at this.)

Thanks for the summary!

But tell the above bullets to Mika Immonen. He started late in his life and look what he has achieved. Mika kicked butt in the US Open this year. I was really impressed. One thing was obvious when I took a lesson from Mika - he has more desire than just about anyone.

And look at Harold Worst who started even later in life than Mika.
 
hi

Neil said:
Then the following is for you, John Schmidt, and others.

The following is a synopsis of the first 4 pages of the article.

Different sports do require different iherited abilities. Such as in basketball, height is an advantage, and in gymnastics, shortness is an advantage. So, there is intially some inherited advantage to any sport.

However, this advantage is soon overshadowed by practice. If this was not true, all you would need is the right genes to excell, practice would not mean anything. And, we all know it does mean a lot. Of course, there are exceptions, savants are an exception.

Practice- this is what determines to what level you achieve. When hitting a plateau, many think they have hit their individual limit of ability. They are wrong. They just need to find another way to practice to get to the next level.

One of the requirements to good practice, to achieve a higher level, is motivation. There must be some kind of reward. For many in pool, this has been money games. That is why so many say to gamble to get better. It really does make a difference. It all depends on what motivates you. It doesn't have to be gambling, but there has to be a motivation factor involved.

Never, ever, set limits on your abilities. Perfomances that were world class in many endeavors 100 years ago barley meet the entry level requirements today. People that have rote jobs, when a benefit was introduced, such as a bonus, increased performance by up to 90%.

Initial talent will only help you in the beginning of any endeavor. You very soon reach a limit that only practice will get you beyond.

So- you want to get better? Practice. You hit a plateau? Learn a different practice routine. There are no limits to how good you can get with INTENSE, PROPER, practice. It takes an average of ten years to attain master level once you start. That's 10 years of intense practice, not just 10 years of playing.

Bottom line- barring mental and physical disabilities, anyone can achieve world class status with proper training and discipline and desire.

As far as the thread on Schmidt vs. Harriman. John, you don't seem too keen on the idea. And, I believe it is because you know, as you have stated, that you two are very close to equals. You know he is practicing, and you are not. That gives him the edge. Two players about equal, the other guy is due to win. In this casse, Danny .

Also, John, if you really believe that it is all talent, then you not practicing doesn't mean anything. Yet, you know it does. So, with all due respect, in this case, of talent vs. nurturing, you are wrong. Nurturing, or practice, is where it's at. Talent only gives you an edge initially.
its simple if 2 people practice a million hours. they will both become very very good. but the one with natural ability whatever that is will be better than the other guy and get there faster too. anyone that does not understand that i dont know what else to say.

you know when i won us open i was playing no pool what so ever . maybe it was talent that helped me win even though 90 percent of the field was playing 40 hours a week compared to my 30 minutes a week.

also i dont need to practice as much as danny because im a better all around player anyway .you may not know it or him but i do.
 
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