I got left this one last night.... You are on the 8 ball, and your opponent (who has solids) has hooked you behind the 4-ball. League rules prohibit jumping (though I'm not certain it's a good % idea with the 8 on the rail anyway). I'd like to hear what you all think is the right play?
Not too much to think about. You have to hit the 8, so the best option is to one-rail it and call a pocket if you get lucky.
The only other option is commit an intentional foul by cozying the 4 right up to the 8, but you don't have too much to gain from that. Just hit the 8 and hope for the best.
I got left this one last night.... You are on the 8 ball, and your opponent (who has solids) has hooked you behind the 4-ball. League rules prohibit jumping (though I'm not certain it's a good % idea with the 8 on the rail anyway). I'd like to hear what you all think is the right play?
Tough spot. You committed to mortal sin of run out your balls without pocketing the 8.
I think kicking at the 8 is out of the question. Contact is not guaranteed - making contact and playing safe would be a terribly difficult shot.
I think the only play here is to foul and try to tie up the balls to prevent the other player from running out. If this is successful, you will still need the other player to make a mistake.
Play the down table trying to snug up against the eight. I think this is a very difficult shot and will most likely fail, but it is the only thing I see that offers any chance of success. If you are successful, the other player has ball in hand and has two options: try to pocket the one and breakout the 4-8 you just tied up or hook you behind the tied up 4-8.
If they take the correct play and hook you again, I would say your boat is sunk. Hopefully, they will misplay and try to pocket the one and break out the 4-8 you just tied up. If they try this there is a chance they will either miss the cluster or hit it in such a way as to not have a run out left.
Hopefully one of the board’s smarter player has a better shot.
I'm with mthornto (and from what I know of his game, he is a MASTER of hopeless positions - he got himself into a position even Efren couldn't get him out of...oh wait, that was his weak partner that put him there, never mind), you HAVE to shoot the 4-ball at the 8-ball; soft speed to try to get the 4 ball just past the side pocket. All your opponent will have is a bank shot. If the 4 ball ties up with the 8, he might not even have the bank. Let us know what you did and how it turned out.
Grady shows a nice 2 rail system in his "Only Kicks" video. It's not a hard system, but hard for me to explain. Maybe if Grady sees this, he can elaborate. It has to do with aiming from the side pocket to the 1st diamond on the short rail to go to the corner pocket, and adjusting from there. I wish I knew how to work the WEI table.
I got left this one last night.... You are on the 8 ball, and your opponent (who has solids) has hooked you behind the 4-ball. League rules prohibit jumping (though I'm not certain it's a good % idea with the 8 on the rail anyway). I'd like to hear what you all think is the right play?
I stupidly left myself this same shot in league one night a couple of years ago. I called the 8-ball in the bottom right corner, and 2-railed the cueball. And by some miracle, I nailed it.
I hate repeating other's stuff, but when you are not the first one one the scene, it happens. I too like the slow roll up to the wight but leave a gap so at least 2 balls can fit between them. I also like the idea of trying to get that 4 ball snug on the rail to prevent an easy bank. Anyway I love these and thanks for sharing!!!
Well, I am always interested to see what the collective wisdom of the AZers is on stuff like this, so when I get one, I post it. Thanks to all who responded, its like having coaches online!
Of course, it was indeed completely idiotic of me to leave the 8 without any striped friends for protection, but knowing it and doing it aren't always the same...
Oh, and I had no time-outs available so couldn't have one of those team conferences where everybody scratches their heads and says, "well, you shouldn't be there..."
I had thought of simply kicking one-rail at the 8, but think its a bad choice. If you hit it, so what? The run-out is easy, and the 8 is off the rail to boot. I don't see how the 8 could be made doing that (get by the 1? ; back cut it cross side?).
I didn't think of the two-rail option, which at least has some chance of making the 8. But, I think the risks are pretty bad here too. Miss and its ball-in-hand, hit the 8 and so what, you got 2 ducks to get on the 8. It only works if you make the 8 for game.
So I went for the intentional foul touch shot, attemting to nestle the 4 up against the 8. You can be very soft because if you fail to hit a rail, well, who cares, you're already giving up ball-in-hand. But, I was just a bit stong, the 4 contacted the 8 sending it a couple of inches up the rail, with some separation between the 4 and 8 as a result and ball in hand for my opponent.
So, he set up with the cue ball between the 8 and the 4, jacked up over the 8, and...missed the 4! (why he didn't set the cue ball say right next to the 8 so he could shoot level I just don't know - maybe because he was so flummoxed that I didn't just give up?). Easy shot on the 8 and victory for me. You never know! Never give up.
So, he set up with the cue ball between the 8 and the 4, jacked up over the 8, and...missed the 4! (why he didn't set the cue ball say right next to the 8 so he could shoot level I just don't know - maybe because he was so flummoxed that I didn't just give up?). Easy shot on the 8 and victory for me. You never know! Never give up.
Great job. If there isn't a 3-foul rule in your league, then you made the correct choice. If there is a 3-foul rule, your opponent was stupid not to try and tie you up again...and again.
I find this to be an interesting statement, one I agree with, but still interesting.
While I hate the 3 foul rule, I realize why it exists. Some games would never end were there no limit to the number of fouls. I hate when somebody tries to get me on three fouls and I hate trying to get a win using the 3 foul rule. However, make no mistake, if the correct stategy at the time is to try and three foul your opponent, I will try for it everytime. I will not enjoy it and will feel a bit dirty afterwards, but I will not hesitate.
The interesting part is that I do not think I am alone in my feelings, many players hate doing this. But, three fouling an opponent does require a lot of skill. You have to hook your opponent and plan for you next safety. At times this can be very difficult. Still, it never really feels like a win. I feel as if I cheated somehow when really I did win because of a superior strategy.
I stupidly left myself this same shot in league one night a couple of years ago. I called the 8-ball in the bottom right corner, and 2-railed the cueball. And by some miracle, I nailed it.
I agree with Fred. It is almost a sure thing that you will at least hit the 8. This is an easy system - count the diamonds between the cueball and the 8 ball. Make sure you count from where you need to hit the 8, which is on the left side of the 8 (as we are looking at it.) It looks like you are just about 4 and a half diamonds distance between them. Make sure to count the side pocket as a diamond.
Now count the half diamonds on the end rail, using the corner pocket as 1, as shown. #4.5 corresponds just before the middle end diamond. AIM to the right of the middle diamond. Your CONTACT on the rail will be somewhat before it as Fred diagrammed. Voila, you make the hit or make the shot. It's actually quite a wide span target you have to hit, as you can hit in front of the 8 rail-first. I have made these many, many times. I had seen in a book where they started the count at the first half-diamond instead of the pocket and it always took me wide, so this is what I do.
Practice as each table is different, and so is cueball reaction off the rails. New cloth is going to go really wide. Sometimes you can fine tune with english or speed. Go deeper into the corner pocket (i.e., closer to 3 or 4) to sharpen the angle, and wider (5 or 6) to lengthen out the angle.
This is a great method for when both balls are on the same rail with an obstructing ball between the two.
I agree with Fred. It is almost a sure thing that you will at least hit the 8. ...Now count the half diamonds on the end rail, using the corner pocket as 1, as shown. #4.5 corresponds just before the middle end diamond. AIM to the right of the middle diamond. Your CONTACT on the rail will be somewhat before it as Fred diagrammed. Voila, you make the hit or make the shot...
This is a great method for when both balls are on the same rail with an obstructing ball between the two.
Aha! Eureka!! I see the methodology, & I will practice this (probably a lot) before I use it. Have the sense this is like banks and kicks - you can work out the geometry, but its sort of a starting point, you gotta hit 'em till they're coming out your ears to feel comfy playing them in matches..not sure the odds are good in what I was dealing with...
But I can definitely see the utility of this. Excellent! Thanks!
This reminds me of a situation that happened to me last week, I committed the mortal sin of running all my balls and missing position on the 8. I then fouled, giving my opponent ball in hand.
After he took the ball and (although in my mind he had an easy runout the 12 passes easily into the side pocket) proceeded to shoot his ball in on safetys leaving me with no shot. I tried the following shot kicking the 8 in the corner first.
I missed that and he called a safety and shot his 10 in leaving me hooked again. When I saw that was what his game was I made the following shot, with a slow roll driving his 12ball to the rail and the cue ball to the foot rail, once again giving him ball in hand.
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anyways, he shot the 13 in corner and tried coming back for the 12 and missed leaving me a moderate shot to the corner on the 8.
I have also had this shot in the past.. If it were allowed I would have pulled out the jump cue, but if not then you have to try to 2 rail it. It's the only play I see.
The way I see it, anything other than pocketing the 8 ball is going to result in a loss simply because the way the one ball sits. It can be pocketed from anywhere on the table. So, in this situation, you're pretty much screwed. Since you're screwed, you have nothing to lose by taking a fould and trying to nudge the 4 up against the 8, and hope that your guy will fail to break the cluster and come up with a shot. Kicking at the 8 isn't a difficult shot, but even if you kick and avoid the foul, you're still leaving an easy out with the way the 1 ball sits. This is an all or nothing situation, and you've pretty much already lost. You're only chance of getting the game is to hope that your guy chokes, and fails to negotiate the 8,4 cluster that you've created. And that's not entirely possible. I've seen it happen, and I've done it myself. When a guy is forced to break a cluster that includes the ball before the game ball, lot's of thoughts creep into a players head. "hit the 8, hit the 4, what happends if I miss the cluster entirely?, I could hit the cluster, and end up ducked behind the 8.............................."
dave
Tying up the four to the eight doesn't work here. Opponent can pocket the one, play shape above the four and tap you up behind the four, so you'll be kicking again.
It's time to go for the win, and there's a masse shot available here that's a little easier than it seems. If this one's not in your arsenal, I suggest adding it. Here it is, a kick in of the eight with left masse, shown below. Don't forget to call your pocket!
Tying up the four to the eight doesn't work here. Opponent can pocket the one, play shape above the four and tap you up behind the four, so you'll be kicking again.
It's time to go for the win, and there's a masse shot available here that's a little easier than it seems. If this one's not in your arsenal, I suggest adding it. Here it is, a kick in of the eight with left masse, shown below. Don't forget to call your pocket!
), you HAVE to shoot the 4-ball at the 8-ball; soft speed to try to get the 4 ball just past the side pocket. All your opponent will have is a bank shot. If the 4 ball ties up with the 8, he might not even have the bank. Let us know what you did and how it turned out.
