Better equipment, shafts, Tips, and Kamui Chalk, but the 526 RUN RECORDS Stands?

[chitownnorth]

i have a question for the folks who say any record attempt is void unless conditions are duplicated - name another sport where conditions are duplicated for records to be broken. There must be a lot since this is obviously a hard and fast rule. I don’t hear people scoffing at Olympic records because conditions weren’t duplicated.

Well for starters, there are indoor and outdoor world records in track. Also, if the wind speed is too great, the time of the race cannot count towards a world record, so certain conditions must be met.

In swimming, many records have been because of the swimwear that was worn for a time that gave too great an advantage. Those suits are now illegal. So again, certain conditions must be met.

In cycling, the hour record had to be regulated because of advancements in equipment and now has to be set on equipment on par with 1972 technology.

So there is definitely precedent.

 

[pt109]

I’m not talking about cleaning crap off the CB.

I’m talking about cleaning all the object balls every few racks during a long run attempt. If you play 14.1 you know that is something totally different.

Lou Figueroa

Being accused of trying to play under the best conditions you can get.....
...sounds suspiciously like bar rules thinking to me.

 

[lfigueroa]

Err, who said Efren would have beat Willie at 14.1 ?
The point I was making was it sure didn't take long for these great 9-ball bangers to run 100's in straight pool. And they beat the straight pool players in their own game . Rempe was playing straight pool for a long time . Yet, Efren ran over him ON HIS FIRST straight pool tournament .

Now, you take the talents we have today. Pay them to play 14.1 exhibitions for years . Hold 14.1 world championships yearly.
Who's to say, these monsters wouldn't be running over 500 ?

This is an argument that can go on forever .
Questioning how good the players today can be at a game they don't even play anymore.
It ain't like snooker where you can argue greatness much easier because they are all playing the same exact game .

I'd take Efren at one-pocket and 15-ball over Willie .
Oh wait, Willie didn't play those games .

Same difference.

I would also take Efren over Willie at 1pocket and rotation... but not at 14.1.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Being accused of trying to play under the best conditions you can get.....
...sounds suspiciously like bar rules thinking to me.

Fiddling with the equipment during a run to make it more favorable to the shooter is bull ca-ca.

Lou Figueroa

 

[pt109]

I would also take Efren over Willie at 1pocket and rotation... but not at 14.1.

Lou Figueroa

Jerry Orbach got a call in NYC from Fatty in Philly.....he needed more money....
...he was playing Willie one pocket....said he had a lock...Willie didn’t know the game.
...Jerry asks “So why do you need more money?”.....Fatty sez “‘cause he keeps running
eight ‘n out.”

Efren played very little 14.1....Dick Lane told me Efren’s patterns were terrible.....
...”But he beat me because he’s a great player.”

I don’t like to see either player demeaned....they are both pool icons.

 

[hitman22]

This reminds me of the debate about 9mm vs the 45 ACP or maybe even Superman vs Batman...Hey but I know my dad is better than your Dad..:thumbup:

 

[terryhanna]

If you are going to "duplicate" something that has happened before and are going to say you "beat it", then you need to do it under the SAME conditions. If not, then you did "something else".

You can't say your tractor won the "mud race" if your tractor went through Perrier water with no mud.

Is Mosconi's record so great only because he beat the previous record that was set on the same type of table and equipment ?

I seem to remember hearing that the 4x8 table he broke the record on was not the normal type of equipment used for most competition at that time.It just happened to be the table available at this exhibition.

You don't hear much about the previous record that was set on different equipment.

 

[lfigueroa]

Jerry Orbach got a call in NYC from Fatty in Philly.....he needed more money....
...he was playing Willie one pocket....said he had a lock...Willie didn’t know the game.
...Jerry asks “So why do you need more money?”.....Fatty sez “‘cause he keeps running
eight ‘n out.”

Efren played very little 14.1....Dick Lane told me Efren’s patterns were terrible.....
...”But he beat me because he’s a great player.”

I don’t like to see either player demeaned....they are both pool icons.

Who demeaned either player?

If you don't play a particular variation of the game you're going to make it up as you go along. That's just the way it is.

Lou Figueroa

 

[pt109]

Who demeaned either player?

If you don't play a particular variation of the game you're going to make it up as you go along. That's just the way it is.

Lou Figueroa

That was generally directed at the thread...the quote to you was just the vehicle.

 

[lfigueroa]

This reminds me of the debate about 9mm vs the 45 ACP or maybe even Superman vs Batman...Hey but I know my dad is better than your Dad..:thumbup:

It's what aficionados -- fans who know the history of their sport -- do.

Whether is Williams v Ruth, Jordan v LeBron, Nicklaus v Tiger, Ali v Marciano, and so on and so forth.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

That was generally directed at the thread...the quote to you was just the vehicle.

Still, I don't recall anyone demeaning anyone. It's just the usual sports fan debate re who was the greatest. If a great player is part of the debate it's kind of a compliment in the first place.

Lou Figueroa

 

[DTL]

.........Mosconi just walked in and did it on an unfamiliar table with folks watching and dealt with the conditions. One take.

Mosconi traveled the country for years, walked into one strange pool room after another 300 days out of any given year.......

Lou Figueroa

Sounds like he had around 300 or so tries a year for a couple decades. Getting one 500+ ball run out of 5000+ attempts is not too bad.

 

[AtLarge]

Sounds like he had around 300 or so tries a year for a couple decades. Getting one 500+ ball run out of 5000+ attempts is not too bad.

No, my understanding is that he rarely continued running balls after winning the match (125 or 150 points, e.g.).

 

[pwd72s]

Why does the record stand? Probably because Mosconi must have been one hell of a pool player! Isn't that enough?

Evidently not, considering the number of pages this has gone..

 

[DTL]

No, my understanding is that he rarely continued running balls after winning the match (125 or 150 points, e.g.).

You're right. Rumor was that he really didn't enjoy what he was doing........so once he did his usual set of trick shots and crushed the local shortstop at a game of 14.1, many times running 100+ balls, he was outta there.

He was probably feeling good that night and knowing he had a very soft table, he went for a big run.

No doubt the best 14.1 player ever in terms of pattern play. Today's equipment would give him more of a challenge, though.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Nobody is questioning Mosconi's greatness.
The title thread asks why the 526 record still runs .

The contention is the greats TODAY and after 14.1 pretty much died, do not play it much anymore.

If you look at the mechanics of a lot of great players today, they appear to have much better mechanics than the players of yester years .
If Appleton, Ebberle, Hohmann, Pagulayan and some of those Taiwanese greats were paid to do 14.1 exhibitions FOR YEARS or DECADES, who can say FOR SURE THEY WOULD HAVE NEVER BROKEN the 526????
How many have run 400's already?
Would it take a decade of them playing 14.1 full time to break 500?

14.1 greatness died when that game was no longer the game of choice.
That game became boring when so many times, one player just sits while the other one just runs out .
Even 9-ball got boring during the days of 4.75"-5" corners .
So, PBT reduced the pocket dimensions and made players break from the box .

This is like asking why nobody has broken Mike Stone's flying kick record .

 

[lfigueroa]

Sounds like he had around 300 or so tries a year for a couple decades. Getting one 500+ ball run out of 5000+ attempts is not too bad.

What in the world are you talking about?

Once he ran 100 or 150 he was done, he'd lay his cue down, and do some trick shots. *One night,* out of thousands of appearance, the crowd urged him to keep going and he did. Mosconi didn't care about high runs, he just cared about completing his show, getting into his car, and heading to his next exhibition.

If he had kept going every time there is no telling what the record might be.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

You're right. Rumor was that he really didn't enjoy what he was doing........so once he did his usual set of trick shots and crushed the local shortstop at a game of 14.1, many times running 100+ balls, he was outta there.

He was probably feeling good that night and knowing he had a very soft table, he went for a big run.

No doubt the best 14.1 player ever in terms of pattern play. Today's equipment would give him more of a challenge, though.

Mosconi rarely played on a 4'x8' so he had to immediately adjust to that size table.

I think everyone knows he did well enough on 4 1/2' x 9s'. I believe he ran 309 on a 5'x10'. And with a little practice was able to beat a seven time snooker champion on a 6'x12' in a multi-day event. So personally, I don't think today's equipment would have slowed him up much.

Lou Figueroa

 

[JoeyInCali]

Mosconi rarely played on a 4'x8' so he had to immediately adjust to that size table.

I think everyone knows he did well enough on 4 1/2' x 9s'. I believe he ran 309 on a 5'x10'. And with a little practice was able to beat a seven time snooker champion on a 6'x12' in a multi-day event. So personally, I don't think today's equipment would have slowed him up much.

Lou Figueroa

He would have run 1000's if he used CTE on tables with the blue glue.

 

[Michael Andros]

Mosconi rarely played on a 4'x8' so he had to immediately adjust to that size table.

I think everyone knows he did well enough on 4 1/2' x 9s'. I believe he ran 309 on a 5'x10'. And with a little practice was able to beat a seven time snooker champion on a 6'x12' in a multi-day event. So personally, I don't think today's equipment would have slowed him up much.

Lou Figueroa

ESPECIALLY if he grew up on it!

I get so tired of hearing people say "Oh, you know, those old guys, they couldn't keep up with today's players. New cloths, better rails, LD shafts, and on and on and on... what's being left out and is like the elephant in the living room is, if they were playing today, they would have grown up on the same equipment everyone else has grown up on. Same 4.5" pockets, same Simonis cloth, same rails, same cues, same chalk, etc, etc, etc, ad infinatum. And guess what... Mosconi would STILL have been a stone cold killer. And so would Crane have been. And Worst. And Wimpy, and on and on and on. But this simple fact never seems to get mentioned.

And here's something else. I've heard lots of folks make comments about how easy it is to play on a 7' barbox after learning or mostly playing on a 9'. Bullhockey. When you're used to the wide-open-spaces afforded a player on a 9', trying to get out on a 7' is usually MADDENING. Especially if you're not used to it. Which is one, if not the MAIN reason Dave Matlock steamrolled world champions on a barbox. Mosconi learned how to play on a 10'. Playing on an 8' would be the same as a player who learned on a 9' playing on a 7'. To him, an 8' was a barbox. Which actually makes the 526 even that much more impressive.