Better for improvement: tournaments or waging

L

lawful777

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thank you to everyone for past responses to my posts. I recently heard about a book, the Hustler and the Champ and the differences both players contributed to the pool world. I have yet to pick up a copy but just the title hits home with a current crossroads I am facing.

A little on my background first. I have always had a deep love for our sport from it's history, community, competitive nature, equipment, antique memoriablia and collectible items. Outside of my family, pool is my first love. I am a decent player, a strong B with the ability to play pretty sporty with A players at times. My lifelong goal is to be a strong A tournament player and as some of my responsibilities in life free a little, the practice and devotion time to achieve this will come. For now, I league play one evening and tournament play another with some practice in between. I also make some road tournaments every few months.

I play well in tournaments and can keep the mental focus because my main goal is to play the best I can with a chance to win. All my energy is then focused in this goal for the night. Recently, however I have been playing for small wagers with people whom I have beaten pretty regularily in tournaments and have been losing. Not much but something like $10-$30 a set. Chump change I know for true gamblers. For me though, something happens. The desire to win goes down because I think I should beat them. They play for money more often than me. I get nervous about money that could be better spent on something else if I lose, etc. I then get out of rythm, stroke, etc. Not really excuses, as I know that I chose to wager, so I accept the losses as well.

Some of the A players in the area based on my tournament play say I should be able win easily and that wagering with these players will improve my level of play. At the same time better players in the area rarely just play to practice, seems like everyone has to wager to take the time to play. I want to improve outside of tournaments so my crossroads is this:

Do I stay focused on tournament play and practice with the plan of doing my best at this or do I continue to grind it out through wagering until I am winning more this way. Which way will help me to achieve a better game? Is it possible that the wagering is hurting my play in the long run?

In the past, I was opposed to gambling with the mindframe that a great player shouldn't have to gamble to prove it. Maybe the book will shed some life unto the subject. If anyone has any CONSTRUCTIVE comments, please fill me in. I might be making a bigger deal of this but my pool fund is slowly dwindling as I am recently losing more wagering than I am winning at tournaments and this alone is affecting my playing mindframe.

Thank you so much for any and all input. I appreciate it.
 
It sounds to me like you lose focus during the money games. I am not sure how you are playing for money, but I read an article on Bartram and he likes to do a 15 up race. So the game does not end until either player is ahead 15 games. He said this way every game counts unlike a race to 7 lets say were you might not put as much importance on the first 1, 2 or 3 games. Obviously for $30 this would take way too long and not be cost effective, but the point is focus. I also tend to get a little careless with players I feel I should and can beat. I guess you are supposed to play the table not your opponent but it can be easier said than done. :shrug:
 
Thanks,

Since I am new to wagering, it has been race to 3 for 10, 7 for 20, etc. Then multiple sets until I have had it. I am thinking about refraining from wagering if I can get to where I want with tournament play and practicing. I was mainly wondering if there are many champions national or local that are so without gambling as it isn't working well for me yet.

THanks for your reply. Happy Shooting!
 
Two different things. Nice part about wagering is, if you lose, you take more money out of your pocket and play again. In a tournament, you just lose. If it's double elimination, you get a second chance. Different kind of pressure. Both helpful to get you to be a better player.

Lyn
 
cardiac kid said:
Two different things. Nice part about wagering is, if you lose, you take more money out of your pocket and play again. In a tournament, you just lose. If it's double elimination, you get a second chance. Different kind of pressure. Both helpful to get you to be a better player.

Lyn
Click to expand...

A friend of mine that hustled pool until he lost his arm says basically the same. We played in a team tournament and he claims that was the most pressure he ever felt because he didn't want to let the team down. He said the same thing as you wrote about gambling, you can always get more money to play but in a tournament you are finished if you lose.
 
TheBook said:
A friend of mine that hustled pool until he lost his arm says basically the same. We played in a team tournament and he claims that was the most pressure he ever felt because he didn't want to let the team down. He said the same thing as you wrote about gambling, you can always get more money to play but in a tournament you are finished if you lose.
Click to expand...

Wow did you hit that one on the head!!!! Team tournament pressure is the worst for me. My team always counts on me to do the right thing. In the individuals, if I screw up, I'm to blame for my loss. Hate to let the team or scotch doubles partner down!

Lyn
 
Ive always found more comfort in tournys, I feel protected by rules and promoters ect. when i gamble Im on my own, and im more distracted with the negotions, not getting paid or worse yet losing.But when i play tournys I feel i can concentrate on winning!! I also know in advance what it will cost,I even play in tournys above my skill as enternment.I dont mind spending money but i MUST get something in return.
 
Two different types of pressures...

They are both two distinctly different feelings of pressure. Both are great for your game. I recommend only wagering what you can afford to lose without it having any effect on your personal life, and playing in tournaments where you realistically feel you should win some matches and even get in the money.
 
You asked which is better for improvement, so I take it your wanting to take your game up a notch or two. You said you play league, some tournaments, and match up occasionally. What is your practice schedule? As in how often do you do drills or work on things that you feel you could stand to improve?

Dont get me wrong, learning to deal with tournament or gambling pressure is important. But if your not also working to improve your game learning to deal with those pressures will only take you so far. In fact spending productive time on the practice table can give you the confidence and skills needed to deal with the pressures we are talking about.
 
Last edited:
The book will not give you any insight on what you refer to. My experience has been totally different. People have beaten me in tournaments who couldn't beat me for two dollars and/or table time. I think tournaments are harder because you really have to win, you can't go get more money and start over. They seem to require different focus for some people. I've never looked down on people who prefer tournaments to playing for money and expect other people not to look down on people who prefer to play for money. Not everybody does, though. Both are viable positions, keeping the moral crap out of it.
 
Play ahead sets!

lawful777 said:
Thanks,

Since I am new to wagering, it has been race to 3 for 10, 7 for 20, etc. Then multiple sets until I have had it. I am thinking about refraining from wagering if I can get to where I want with tournament play and practicing. I was mainly wondering if there are many champions national or local that are so without gambling as it isn't working well for me yet.

THanks for your reply. Happy Shooting!
Click to expand...


Tournament pressure and gambling pressure are two different animals, it's good to master them both.

Instead of playing those short races for your money, play ahead sets.

Playing a race to 3 for $10, the max amount of games played will be 5, playing a race to 7 for $20 the max amount of games played will be 13,

see what I'm getting at is, in a short race Every game is very important, if you change your gambling to playing ahead sets you will get more bang for your buck, ........

lets say you play, 5 ahead sets for $40 or $50, you may play just 5 games and win or loose , or you could play all night and win or loose 100-105, see what I'm sayin, you get to play alot longer on your money, AND every game is Not as important to win as it is in an race set, you can loose a few games if you make a mistake and still get them back............

"change your gambling to playing ahead sets and I gaurante You that your gambling game & pool game will get much, much better".........

the best player always wins playing ahead sets as opposed to short races where the underdog can beat you.

hope this helps:thumbup2:


P.S. Let's say you play race's to 7 for $20 , and you loose 4 sets (7-6), thats puts you down 4 sets , (4 games) $80 looser........well now your in a LURCH!... Ok , lets say if you'd been playing 5 ahead sets your just 4 games looser, and you still can come back and win the set and be up $20, That's a $100 differance, see what what I'm getting at.......

You can loose $20 or win $20 but could have saved you $100 for the same bet playing those short races, and get in a hell alot more playing time !

Playing races is a hustlers way of gettin the deed done quick or someone taking a short shot at you and hopeing they get you looser so you will dog it!


David Harcrow
 
Last edited:
improvements thru tournaments or wagering

Thank you David,

That was very insightful and might be just what I try before giving in the towel. I may even go a little shorter, say 4 ahead for 20 or so since most of the time it is after the tournament has finished and there is only a couple of hrs left before the place closes. I should be good with that since I often beat these same guys in tournaments. If I give this a focused, real try and then start to fail, I may go back to tournament play. It can't hurt too much to try. Thanks again for the advice.

J
 
Gambling pressure

I like to play short sets when wagering. More pressure for my opponent and myself, also the ability to get more sets in over the course of a session. Typically I play race to 5 for $100-200 a set. Some of the guys like to double the bet if the opponent loses 5-0. I love that because the pressure when down 3-0 keeps you playing hard all the time. I've never been doubled on, but have done it many times on my opponents.

Once you play like this you will soon be uninterested in playing for $10 and time. However you will play with great intensity each time you approach the table because you know how much a single shot can change the outcome of the set.

After awhile the amount you play for is irrelevant. It's about how you matchup with the opponent and how well you play. Yes occasionally the rolls get you, especially in short sets, but that's a short term phenomenon.

Tournament play is fine too, but I usually make as much or more side betting as I do in the tournaments. My goal walking into a room during a tournament is to find someone new to gamble with and get my expenses covered before the event starts. It happens regularly.

My game is better because I am shooting without fear of the outcomes anymore. Simply playing the odds of a shot, saftey or runout versus what my opponent can do. Spotting multiple ball and/or games against weaker opponents makes me play them more intelligently in tournament play. Those who say they, "play everyone the same" are missing out on alot of wins by not playing smarter.
 
I'd say they're two different types of pressure. One to excel all the way through the tournament and win. The other is to push yourself to a top game; so as to not go home with the your thumb up pointing behind you on the side of the road, and broke.
 
You are having problems gambling because the money means too much to you. Hence there is more pressure gambling, than in tournaments where you forget the entry fee and just play.

You have to start small and work up when you start gambling. I would advise playing races to 9 or 10...even 15 for small amounts (maybe $20). The length of the race insures that you get alot of play in. The small amount means that if you lose, it's not too painful. You can also play per game....$1, $2, $3...etc...

The goal here is to aclimate yourself to gambling. As you become confident with your play and matching up ablilities, you can up the bet. If you are like me, you will avoid the woofing that sometimes occurs and only gamble with responsible adults. If they kid you about playing too cheap, then they simply don't have to play you do they?
 
lawful777 said:
The desire to win goes down because I think I should beat them. They,,,,,,.
Click to expand...

This sentence is the key to your problem. It's NOT which play makes you better, it's that you assume too much when you gamble with those you think are inferior players. The problem is in you, not the game.

People say gambling makes you focus on every shot. You know who says that? GAMBLERS!!! Because gamblers only care about playing for money. In pool especially, they only play good enough to win, which is not the recipe for improving your game, it's only a recipe for winning money.

Why can't playing someone who's way better than you make you focus just as much. I guarantee you that if you played Mika for a month you would be far better than if you gambled for a month. Your problem is how you choose to focus.
 
Gambling, you get to choose everything.
The game, the rules, the race, the amount, when, what table, how long and once you are winning or losing, you can even adjust to your liking.
What is the gamble there? You get everything you want when you want it and the only pressure you get to experience is when you are shootig on AIR.

Tournament play;
You will be told when to start, what game, what table, the race, your opponent, and the rules.
Normally you cannot buy back into the tournament when you lose.
You have to be at the pool hall and paid up by a certain time.

IMO (in 6 months) if you take two "C" players and only one gambles to get better and the other gets instructions and practices and plays in tournment.
The one with more table time will be the better player.
My guess it will be the tournament player. No too many players are gambling now-a-days with "C" players.
 
Salamander has it right. You're just not used to gambling, so you're starting off scared. Maybe gambling isn't for you, no shame in that.

I enjoy it, just small bets to keep it interesting but I like gambling because you can really settle in and find your game. I don't play as much as I used to so I think that hurts me in tournaments where you just have to be ready to go when they call your match.

Obviously it's all in your head, just play the game. If you're scared of losing the money, you shouldn't be betting it IMO.
 
Better for improvement

Both have merits and drawbacks, A couple of things I wish someone had told me when I first started, if someone asks you to gamble make them show at least 5 times the money they want to play for, many times they can't show 1 barrel. Unless it is someone you know have a person you trust hold it. When I think back to all the times I lost money to some "gambler" who did not have any money. I am surprised I kept playing.

I know they did not have any money when they played me because I watched them do the same thing to every young guy who walked in the poolroom for the next 30 years. Many times they would have to wait to get paid before they could pay 2 dollars in table time.
 
Different ...

Lawful,

The pressure that you are comfortable is just different. Both types of play (tournament and & match "gambling") are money play, they are also both wager play:

In tournament play, you put up your money and *poof*, it's already lost UNLESS you win and win and win ... etc. For what you've described about yourself, you see this as diametrically different from match play; it really isn't.
In match play, it may help you to view it as a tournament of two players, race to (whatever)... winner take all.

Also, you mentioned how you have "expectations" to win (this takes you out of "the moment") and how you lose focus because of this. You've identified most of the problem.
If you are focused on anything that is NOT between the rails, you are not focused on your game, right?

-Ivan
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top