Better way of qualifying

[Grady]

In golf, they have qualifying school, where, if I'm not mistaken, players have to shoot certain scores to get their card. Well, at pool, why not have a requirement for an .875 average with Accu-stats scoring or have a player have to beat the 9 Ball ghost a ten ahead on moderate equipment? Anything would be better than the current system used by Matchroom.
So what if a thousand men qualified? I respectfully submit that that would be one hell of a fine tournament.

 

[Celtic]

I have to agree that the way people qualify for the WPA and perhaps any future pool tour should be a more objective test of skill as you have suggested. Even a number of qualifying events to reach the top level works, the PGA requires you win your way through a series of tournaments and place really high against all other hopefuls of making it into the tour.

I did not agree with you about no qualification for the worlds, but a different qualification procedure would be a good thing as the people who win out of the various countries are often chosen due to odd circumstances that sends people who are not often the best, and alot of top players are missed.

 

[satman]

I had been thinking about a similar idea for a while Grady. With all the small {what I term semi-pro} tours around you could use those as a feeder system by using placing in a certain position or points accumulated. You could run a qualifier 2 days before the big event and the top 8 or so go to the main board to play in the big one. There are lots of great players out there. I think it will come around eventually. Sam

 

[manlyshot]

Here's the problem in a nutshell, folks. The UPA ranking system is currently used as the qualification vehicle for larger venues, like WPC. Points are accumulated by UPA members who attend the UPA Tour events.

The 2004 UPA Tour:

Tour Stop No. 1. Super Billiards Expo, 3/25-28, which just happened.

Tour Stop No. 2. BCA Open, 5/16-22 (tomorrow), Las Vegas, AN INVITATIONAL-ONLY event. All other UPA members are not afforded an opportunity to receive any UPA ranking points and will thereafter remain on the bottom of the UPA chart. The UPA board of directors, as an example, who remain high on the UPA ranking system -- AND VOTING MEMBERS, TOO, I MIGHT ADD -- will get to keep their place at the top of the heap for just showing up, not matter how well they finish. Nice little security blanket.

Tour Stop Nos. 3 and 4, Big Apple and World Summit of Pool, both located in New York City, a chance to accumulate UPA ranking points at a cost of approximately $2,000 -- PER EVENT -- in traveling, lodging, and entry fee expenses.

Tour Stop No. 5, Atlanta Open, a chance to accumulate UPA ranking points.

Tour Stop No. 6, Washington, D.C., to be announced by Dragon Promotions.

If an American pool player is not able to participate in Tour Stop No. 2, because they are not a UPA member or they do not possess enough UPA ranking points, they will never be eligible for prestigious tournaments such as World Pool Champsionship in Taiwan, unless they receive an invitation from Matchroom as a wildcard.

The UPA ranking system is flawed when an invitational-only tournament such as the BCA Open is used for UPA ranking points accumulation.

UPA members like Kid Delicious, as an example, a recent UPA member, is not provided the same opportunity to receive the enough UPA points if he cannot participate in a tournament that consists of one-fifth of the UPA ranking point system. He will NEVER qualify for a WPC.

And then there's Earl...

ManlyShot

 

[satman]

How right you are.. There is a fair way to deal with this situation. As in the situation with Earl, He has proven himself year after year to be one of the greatest players ever. Headstrong and outspoken and sometimes completely out of line, he should always be entitled to particpate in the WPA. Those players that have gained such status should be invited to play. Sam

 

[manlyshot]

How right you are.. There is a fair way to deal with this situation. As in the situation with Earl, He has proven himself year after year to be one of the greatest players ever. Headstrong and outspoken and sometimes completely out of line, he should always be entitled to particpate in the WPA. Those players that have gained such status should be invited to play. Sam

Yep, they sure should be, kind of like a grandfathering clause.

I used to think the BCA was the watchdog of pool players and would ensure fair and equal opportunities to all, with the common theme being the promotion of pool as a sport. After the reading about the recent BCA Hall of Fame Committee voting process, it is now clear the BCA represents the interests of its industry members and a few -- maybe only one -- pool media entity.

If the BCA does not even include Ronnie Allen, as an example, on the "official" players lists of Men's Professionals or Men's Masters, as shown on their website -- http://bca-pool.com -- it speaks volumes about what the "true" mission of the BCA really is and who it serves. Pool players are at the bottom of the heap.

ManlyShot

 

[hemicudas]

Yep, they sure should be, kind of like a grandfathering clause.

I used to think the BCA was the watchdog of pool players and would ensure fair and equal opportunities to all, with the common theme being the promotion of pool as a sport. After the reading about the recent BCA Hall of Fame Committee voting process, it is now clear the BCA represents the interests of its industry members and a few -- maybe only one -- pool media entity.

If the BCA does not even include Ronnie Allen, as an example, on the "official" players lists of Men's Professionals or Men's Masters, as shown on their website -- http://bca-pool.com -- it speaks volumes about what the "true" mission of the BCA really is and who it serves. Pool players are at the bottom of the heap.

ManlyShot

TAP,TAP,TAP. The only problem with your post, Manlyshot, is that it requires a 3 digit IQ to understand how correct you are. The BCA and Charlie and his "Angels", have been doing this to the players for years. Unfortunately, I believe, the majority of the players checked up one digit shy.

 

[sjm]

In golf, they have qualifying school, where, if I'm not mistaken, players have to shoot certain scores to get their card. Well, at pool, why not have a requirement for an .875 average with Accu-stats scoring or have a player have to beat the 9 Ball ghost a ten ahead on moderate equipment? Anything would be better than the current system used by Matchroom.
So what if a thousand men qualified? I respectfully submit that that would be one hell of a fine tournament.

Excellent post, Grady, and I think you are on to something.

Let me shed a little more light on how golf does it, because pool can learn a lot from their methodology. I’ll leave out a few details and oversimplify. There are 175 PGA card carrying members, and carrying a card means you can play in all but two PGA tour events (entry into the Masters and Tour Championship are performance based). If you carry a PGA card and don't finish in the top 125 on the PGA money list in a given tour year, you are stripped of your card. You may attempt to regain it by playing in the annual multi-stage qualifying event to which you’ve referred. I believe that all golfers carrying a 2 handicap or less have access to this qualifying event (familiarly known as the Q school), so it’s a large field event. The Top 35 finishers earn PGA tour cards. There is also a second-tier PGA golf tour called the Nationwide Tour for the less elite professionals, with less prestige and less prize money. Each year, the top 15 finishers on the Nationwide Tour earn a PGA tour card. The PGA tour methodology ensures access to their tour, but also weeds out those with diminished skills.

Golf’s methodology, which awards playing privileges to hundreds (including the Nationwide tour), ensures that only accomplished players can play, and affords two ways for an aspiring pro to establishing that they are deserving.

Far superior to having an unrestricted entry process in premier events (such as the US Open methodology) is having fields open only to those that demonstrate at least a certain level of proficiency in their play. What that level of proficiency should be and how it would be validated are tough questions, but I like your idea a lot.

 

[pro9dg]

A Better Way of Qualifying

Matchroom Sport are aware of the deficiencies of the present system of choosing players. It has worked reasonably well in the past and in previous years there have not been many major names that have been absent from the main field draw. Granted, there have been a few anomolies in the 128 stage but by and large the last 64 players are all of world class standard.
Luke Riches is a very intelligent and conscientious individual and has worked hard to ensure that as this Championship matures it gains full credibility. But, thanks to Barry Hearn, there will always be a need to include some players either for their marketability or who fall foul of some political divide. Rest assured with Matchroom professionalism at the helm the WPC is way ahead of any comparable promotion. In the meantime I hope to see a good response from US/Canadian/International players at the New York Qualifiers.
Doug Gordon

 

[manlyshot]

Matchroom Sport are aware of the deficiencies of the present system of choosing players. It has worked reasonably well in the past and in previous years there have not been many major names that have been absent from the main field draw. Granted, there have been a few anomolies in the 128 stage but by and large the last 64 players are all of world class standard.
Luke Riches is a very intelligent and conscientious individual and has worked hard to ensure that as this Championship matures it gains full credibility. But, thanks to Barry Hearn, there will always be a need to include some players either for their marketability or who fall foul of some political divide. Rest assured with Matchroom professionalism at the helm the WPC is way ahead of any comparable promotion. In the meantime I hope to see a good response from US/Canadian/International players at the New York Qualifiers.
Doug Gordon

Thank the good Lord for Matchroom Sport, Doug Gordon, and Luke Riches!

The New York qualfier is the ONLY opportunity available to non-UPA members and lower-ranked UPA touring pros who are not afforded an opportunity to accumulate UPA ranking points, the very points needed to qualify for the World Pool Championship. The UPA ranking point system suits the needs of the upper elite of the UPA, namely the board of directors, who are guaranteed a spot by just showing up in Vegas.

Bravo to you, Doug Gordon, and I look forward to meeting you in NYC.

ManlyShot

 

[SUPERSTAR]

First i guess let me start off by saying that the BCA, as far as i'm concerned, has always been concerned about the BCA. As long as pool pays THEIR salaries, the BCA will do their best to promote pool, while keeping THEIR pockets fat, and pool players pockets empty.
Now that the UPA is involved with things...i feel that the same holds true.
The UPA is there for the UPA. Why else would they make a statement which is so obviously directed at making people question the tournament director in canada. All because they didn't get their way? That TD bought out some very valid points!
UPA comments were misleading. A UPA standard.

Now that that's out of the way. The whole membership thing and rankings, just doesn't cut it for me. To much room for personal political agenda like the UPA VOTING MEMBERS thing pointed out earlier.

I'd like to parallel pool with golf, but i can't. Golf is a one man sport with the rolls being a personal thing. To make it like pool..... Imagine i hit a ball straight down the fairway, and then the next shot i fly it into no mans land....surrounded heavy bush jacked up on a tree. I don't worry though....because it's now my opponents shot. If he for some reason FAILS to get it back on the fairway...i just take a ball in hand...drop and continue playing. THAT'S POOL!

Qualifying schools are a great idea though.
although to do it, you need decent TOURS to do it with, and MONEY on those tours to make it worthwhile.

Personally, i'd like to see a major tour that is made up of nothing but qualifiers. Once someone qualified...they would no longer be able to play in a qualifier for THAT specific tournament.

Even the Stricklands and the Archers and Reyes' would have to qualify.
NO special treatment WHATSOEVER!

Every person in the tournament had to WIN a smaller tournament to get in.
AND...think of the cash.
Host rooms would be a part of the system...say...a PRO TOUR AFFILIATE ROOM, because they would be hosting qualifiers during the season. (they would then get plugs for business when the player who represents that room would be announced)
If some room had a qualifier for say .....$100,000 event. The entry fee being like 50 bucks. How many players in YOUR area would turn out for it. In my area....i'd say about 40-60 would show up. So that's $2000+bucks. Say they get 40 players. $1000 goes into the BIG tournament prize fund. $500 back to the room owner for greens fee's and running the tournament, and $500 to the winner for expenses (room and transportation) plus he has his entry into the big event for a shot at the cash It would also weed out the nits, and keep it to players that are serious about taking a shot!

So imagine if you had say 100 or 128 qualifiers around the country. If they only got 40 players at each room....that's still $128,000 prize fund.- venue costs and such.
I mean...if there was a tour of $100,000+ tournaments...for $50 bucks, every pool player and their mother would be there.
I mean...what's harder to swallow. $300+expenses for some UPA event where first prize is $10,000 or say $50 bucks to win maybe 2 or 3 times as much.

Now i know...that for this idea to EVER get off the ground...the whole county's pool rooms would have to join together. Someone would have to organize it.

i know there are gonna be some flaws with this scenario, but still i think that somewhere down the line it might have some merit. You'd probably end up with most if not all of the marquee players plus lots of players that are fantastic, but never had the bankroll to go try out a major. It would have to be filled with talent...just based on the format. (granted...there would probably be a few nobody qualifiers, but who cares...think of the money)


The only way it would work is if you had someone running it that wasn't greedy, who was content with their salary, and not looking to screw over the players. (his salary being a result on the fan based income)


You guys are my witnesses.....you heard it hear first!
Lets see who trys to steal this one.

SUPERSTAR

Whatcha think?! FEEDBACK PLEASE....if it's good or if it's bad...how could you make it better

 

[bud green]

Does the format the World Series of Poker uses to determine who enters have any chance to be applicable to an event like the US OPEN?

 

[manlyshot]

The UPA is there for the UPA. Why else would they make a statement which is so obviously directed at making people question the tournament director in canada. All because they didn't get their way? That TD bought out some very valid points! UPA comments were misleading. A UPA standard.

Whatcha think?! FEEDBACK PLEASE....if it's good or if it's bad...how could you make it better

SUPERSTAR, you got your heart in the right place, and your ideas are certainly forward-looking and advantageous to pool players in general.

The problem remains the same. Everybody is chewing on the same bone in pool, and new monies need to be infused into the mix.

In all fairness to the UPA, when the UPA sanctioning was accepted by the Canadian independent promoter, part of the agreement negotiated was to have a $20,000 event, and in return, the UPA promised to deliver UPA touring pro pool players.

The UPA guarantees to its membership as well as other participants that the monies will be paid out in accordance with UPA guidelines. That is the way it is supposed to work.

Because of the slow response to the Canadian independent promoter and virtually no entry fees coming in except eight, six coming by way of the UPA touring pros (most likely consisting of the well-compensated UPA board of directors), I can see his dilemma and understand why he pulled out of the sanctioning.

Again, it is a lose-lose situation. I wish the Canadian tournament to be successful, and I also desire to see the new-and-improved UPA continue its supposed mission of promoting men's pool to ALL UPA members, not just its board of directors and those members attending invitational-only events.

Kid Delicious paid his 100 bucks to the UPA for membership. He is not being afforded fair and equal treatment when the UPA board of directors receive UPA ranking points from the BCA Open in Vegas, an invitational-only tournament, which keeps a select few in the UPA at the top of the ranking chart.

And then there is Earl...

ManlyShot

 

[Cardinal_Syn]

Does the format the World Series of Poker uses to determine who enters have any chance to be applicable to an event like the US OPEN?

the world series of poker is an open field with an entry fee of $10000 i think. It has no sponsors and the prize money is based on how many participant there are.

 

[nfty9er]

Qualifiers

the world series of poker is an open field with an entry fee of $10000 i think. It has no sponsors and the prize money is based on how many participant there are.

Paying your money is not the only way though, many qualify through online poker sites by winning qualifying tournaments just like you could do in pool.
Last years winner paid 30 bucks and ended up winning, so pool could do it but the poster was right it would take a lot of cooperation.

 

[sjm]

the world series of poker is an open field with an entry fee of $10000 i think. It has no sponsors and the prize money is based on how many participant there are.

Cardinal and Bud, you may be on to something here.

On the one hand, poker is not a sport, and on the surface, has no more applicability to pool than a dance or cooking contest. On the other hand, it's shown on ESPN, and, in my opinion, it's because poker has managed to produce the excitement, and much more importantly, the personalities, that most of us associate with sports. Let's face it, even Minnesota Fats wouldn't stick out at the final table of the World Series of Poker. They all act like him!
Pro pool players take note, because the theatricality that the colorful players of poker have produced explains why their game has grown so much.

Still, the real magic of this poker event is that it manages to have 839 players (in 2003, that is) competing and gets the event finshed in five days. The fact that they are able to work such magic is impressive, but, then again, in their game, unlike ours, seven can compete at one table at one time. Also, contestants are willing to compete for many consecutive hours at a time, and are required to do just that for several days in a row to win big.

Poker's magic is indisputable, but I don't think pool cannot duplicate poker's "all welcome" entry policy without huge format changes.

Then again, if you have enough tables, you can do it. The BCA men's open singles amateur event that will take place at the Riviera this week tends to have about as many entrants as the World Series of Poker, and they finish in about the same amount of time. Of course, they have a couple of hundred tables available to them for competition, but it's worth noting that it's possible in pool for a field that size to finish in under a week.

My sense, though, is that a move in this direction is impractical in pool.

 

[poolplayer1988]

That's a great idea!

Qualifying schools are a great idea though.
although to do it, you need decent TOURS to do it with, and MONEY on those tours to make it worthwhile.

Personally, i'd like to see a major tour that is made up of nothing but qualifiers. Once someone qualified...they would no longer be able to play in a qualifier for THAT specific tournament.

Even the Stricklands and the Archers and Reyes' would have to qualify.
NO special treatment WHATSOEVER!

Every person in the tournament had to WIN a smaller tournament to get in.
AND...think of the cash.
Host rooms would be a part of the system...say...a PRO TOUR AFFILIATE ROOM, because they would be hosting qualifiers during the season. (they would then get plugs for business when the player who represents that room would be announced)
If some room had a qualifier for say .....$100,000 event. The entry fee being like 50 bucks. How many players in YOUR area would turn out for it. In my area....i'd say about 40-60 would show up. So that's $2000+bucks. Say they get 40 players. $1000 goes into the BIG tournament prize fund. $500 back to the room owner for greens fee's and running the tournament, and $500 to the winner for expenses (room and transportation) plus he has his entry into the big event for a shot at the cash It would also weed out the nits, and keep it to players that are serious about taking a shot!

So imagine if you had say 100 or 128 qualifiers around the country. If they only got 40 players at each room....that's still $128,000 prize fund.- venue costs and such.
I mean...if there was a tour of $100,000+ tournaments...for $50 bucks, every pool player and their mother would be there.
I mean...what's harder to swallow. $300+expenses for some UPA event where first prize is $10,000 or say $50 bucks to win maybe 2 or 3 times as much.

I love the idea of qualifiers around the country. I think it's an idea whose time has come and someone needs to start working on it. If I can help, let me know with an email.

Doug Talbot

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Kid Delicious paid his 100 bucks to the UPA for membership. He is not being afforded fair and equal treatment when the UPA board of directors receive UPA ranking points from the BCA Open in Vegas, an invitational-only tournament, which keeps a select few in the UPA at the top of the ranking chart.

ManlyShot

Very interesting that you bring up Danny and his membership. I remember last summer at the Capital City Classic when he was arguing with Jimmy Wetch about the membership fee. Jimmy was talking about "you want to get treated like the professional that you are don't you?"

Kind of ironic that he's the one you use as an example.

Way i see it. NO BOARDMEMBER should be a player. Maybe 1 player REPRESENTATIVE for players to voice themselves through, but that person should in no way get special treatment.
Until the UPA decides to stop spoiling themselves for being the UPA....it's never gonna benefit anyone.

Garbage organization if you ask me, and IMO created specifically for the purpose of furthering a certain UPA founder's career that would have otherwise not gone anywhere.
BUT...since they now have the power...they can dictate where and when things happen, and conveniently put themselves in more positions to make money than they would have been in before.
Think about how much easier it must be to play, knowing that at any given time...you could mess with someones membership because they beat you, or you didn't like them.

If it was me...i'd be in dead stroke!

SUPERSTAR

 

[Raistlin]

1000 player tournament?

Grady: agree that there would be some great matches in a massive tournament like that. However there would be some very broke players after ponying up for food, accomodation (would be at least 20 night worth), flights etc.

I still think that matchroom have shown EVERY other promoter out there how to stage a successful pool tournament and make it a money-making exercise. It isn't matchroom's fault that other promoters still run their business like it is the 1960's. Anyone care to disagree?

 

[manlyshot]

Very interesting that you bring up Danny and his membership. I remember last summer at the Capital City Classic when he was arguing with Jimmy Wetch about the membership fee. Jimmy was talking about "you want to get treated like the professional that you are don't you?"

Kind of ironic that he's the one you use as an example.

I was there, and Jimmy Wetch confronted more players than Danny. Danny finally signed on at the World Summit of Pool in NYC, but he isn't too happy with the UPA ranking structure.

When 20 percent of the points accumulation comes from an invitation-only tournament, such as the BCA Open going on right now, UPA members like Kid Delicous will NEVER be able to reach the top of the charts. The UPA board of directors will stay at the top of the charts. It is a flawed ranking system and not fair to UPA members like Danny.

Kid Delicious and players like him will NEVER qualify for higher-paying tournaments through the UPA.

Frankie Hernandez, not a UPA member, got into the BCA Open because Hall of Famer Nick Varner wasn't attending. Hall of Fame pool players get an invitation. Frankie was on a waiting list.

The UPA has created an environment which makes it impossible for new UPA members to ever rise in their ranking system. So Charlie and his friends will always be eligible for higher-paying tournaments.

And then there's Earl...

ManlyShot