BHE revisited

[CaptainJR]

There was so much talk about BHE is a thread about what not to listen to that I just couldn't stand it. I also said don't listen to me because I don't know what I'm talking about. So take it or leave it, here ya go. Once again.

Back Hand English (or Front hand, which ever you decide to move, or swoop i guess.) are the only ones that work. Because of deflection parallel english does not work! The last time I said this Colin said that there was one shot that parallel english works. I couldn't get is to work on that shot but let's say it does. Why would you teach a beginner something that only works on one shot. Parallel english doesn't work (maybe with the exception of 1 shot out of 1000) So contrary to what I read someone say in the other thread, if you think a friend is ready for english, show him BHE, don't show him parallel english.

 

[Gregg]

I also said don't listen to me because I don't know what I'm talking about...Parallel english doesn't work (maybe with the exception of 1 shot out of 1000)....

Really? That damn cueball has been lying to me!

Can I choose not to listen to you Capt?

 

[TheBook]

Captain must have gotten into someone else's share of grog.

 

[CaptainJR]

Can I choose not to listen to you Capt?

Absolutely!

But if you think you are using parallel enghish and it is working, you are fooling yourself. Have someone look from behind you or better yet take a picture from behind the stick and you will find that you are in fact using BHE. Parallel can't work because of deflection.

 

[StevenPWaldon]

How about on a soft, slow-roll shot at pocket speed? Do you still need BHE for these shots too?

Absolutely!

But if you think you are using parallel enghish and it is working, you are fooling yourself. Have someone look from behind you or better yet take a picture from behind the stick and you will find that you are in fact using BHE. Parallel can't work because of deflection.

 

[VIProfessor]

Absolutely!

But if you think you are using parallel enghish and it is working, you are fooling yourself. Have someone look from behind you or better yet take a picture from behind the stick and you will find that you are in fact using BHE. Parallel can't work because of deflection.

Parallel can't work because of deflection!! Hmm! So what happens when you compensate for deflection by adjusting your aiming point BEFORE you get down on the shot (like I've been doing for years)? I understand your attachment to BHE because it is what you have grown accustomed to. I do not, however, understand your dogmatic attachment to it as the ONLY method to compensate for deflection, particularly when it is contradicted by most of the leading instructors. Furthermore, if you pivot your backhand after getting down on the shot, don't you ruin the overall alignment of your body and induce a crooked stroke?

 

[seven]

There was so much talk about BHE is a thread about what not to listen to that I just couldn't stand it. I also said don't listen to me because I don't know what I'm talking about. So take it or leave it, here ya go. Once again.

I think I'll leave it. so what scientific experements have you conducted to come up with such a conclusion? I'm not bashing... I'm just curious

 

[CaptainJR]

How about on a soft, slow-roll shot at pocket speed? Do you still need BHE for these shots too?

Ah ha! Someone that knows what I'm talking about! Yes The softer the shot the less movement of the back hand. On a softer shot the cue stick tends to push the cue ball in the direction of it's travel and the softer you hit the less deflection you get. Not so much so the you can use parallel though. On these softer shots I would tend to use front hand english because it compensates for deflection less than BHE.

Also the closer your cue ball is to the object ball the less you need to compensate for deflection.

 

[CaptainJR]

Parallel can't work because of deflection!! Hmm! So what happens when you compensate for deflection by adjusting your aiming point BEFORE you get down on the shot (like I've been doing for years)? I understand your attachment to BHE because it is what you have grown accustomed to. I do not, however, understand your dogmatic attachment to it as the ONLY method to compensate for deflection, particularly when it is contradicted by most of the leading instructors. Furthermore, if you pivot your backhand after getting down on the shot, don't you ruin the overall alignment of your body and induce a crooked stroke?

You are using BHE. On any given shot "" there is only one line the cue stick can be moving in to pocket the shot. Wether you move your back hand to get to it or change your aiming point and then use paralell to the new incorrect aiming point, you are still using BHE.


edit - "given a certain wanted amount of spin"

 

[CaptainJR]

Parallel can't work because of deflection!! Hmm! So what happens when you compensate for deflection by adjusting your aiming point BEFORE you get down on the shot (like I've been doing for years)? I understand your attachment to BHE because it is what you have grown accustomed to. I do not, however, understand your dogmatic attachment to it as the ONLY method to compensate for deflection, particularly when it is contradicted by most of the leading instructors. Furthermore, if you pivot your backhand after getting down on the shot, don't you ruin the overall alignment of your body and induce a crooked stroke?

Forgot the second part.

I'm not using a crooked stroke. However you did catch me in one thing I was avoiding and that is whether I am actually using BHE. Must I wait till I'm down on the shot and then move my back hand to call it BHE. If so then I don't use it. When I use it, it is all done standing up and I go down in alignment with where my stick would end up after moving the back hand.

 

[Omar]

Absolutely!

But if you think you are using parallel enghish and it is working, you are fooling yourself. Have someone look from behind you or better yet take a picture from behind the stick and you will find that you are in fact using BHE. Parallel can't work because of deflection.

I agree with you that most people are actually using some form of BHE whether they know it or not, but I think that is mainly because it is kind of awkward to line up at a parallel offset to the line of the shot. Most people seem to work off where they think the center of the cue ball is.

But I guess that if somebody was able to align themselves that way, they could be successful. It's all a question of finding the correct shot line to adjust for the curve caused by deflection and swerve. You must be doing that even when you are using BHE, since it seems unlikely that you are finding exactly the right pivot point to completely cancel deflection on every shot. Doesn't it have to vary based on amount of tip offset and possibly shot speed? And even if you did, you would still have to adjust for swerve, especially since there wouldn't be any deflection to offset it.

The reality is that the cue ball doesn't really travel in a straight line, even though we tend to think about it that way.

 

[jsp]

Parallel can't work because of deflection!! Hmm! So what happens when you compensate for deflection by adjusting your aiming point BEFORE you get down on the shot (like I've been doing for years)?

Careful VIProfessor. Technically, what you just described isn't exactly "Parallel" English (nor is it Backhand English). At one point I thought it was PE too until Cornerman Fred corrected me.

What you've described is SCPPE...Squirt Compensated Pseudo-Parallel English.

jsp <~~ coiner of the term SCPPE

 

[Gregg]

It's not long until this thread degenerates into discussion/argument about pivot point, shaft deflection, tip circumference, layered vs. non layered tips, cloth, temperature, humidity, astrological signs, and more!

 

[CaptainJR]

One more thing, I've been really trying to use less and less english in my shooting. To the point that I've found myself using front hand english more than BHE. This is because the less spin I use the less I need to compensate and front hand english compensates less.

 

[TheConArtist]

its a great thing to shoot more without english as i shoot alot with it, and find myself spinning the balls in. Plus you can run a rack without english just follow or a stun shot just make shure you get on the correct side of the ball Hehehe.

 

[Aaron_S]

Absolutely!

But if you think you are using parallel enghish and it is working, you are fooling yourself. Have someone look from behind you or better yet take a picture from behind the stick and you will find that you are in fact using BHE. Parallel can't work because of deflection.

Just a quick question or two. When you say "can't work", do you actually mean "can work, but requires that compensations be made elsewhere", and, if so, wouldn't you agree that that is the case for any method you might choose to use? In my mind, all methods of applying english can work, and by choosing one method over the other, we are simply trading one group of compensations for another group that better suits us. If you agree to that, then you should also agree that noone can possibly be wrong in this discussion, because the chosen method of applying english is, like so many other things, a matter of personal preference.

Aaron

 

[CaptainJR]

It's not long until this thread degenerates into discussion/argument about pivot point, shaft deflection, tip circumference, layered vs. non layered tips, cloth, temperature, humidity, astrological signs, and more!

I'm having a bad day as far as my quiting smoking and just needed to argue about something.

 

[seymore15074]

Absolutely!

But if you think you are using parallel enghish and it is working, you are fooling yourself. Have someone look from behind you or better yet take a picture from behind the stick and you will find that you are in fact using BHE. Parallel can't work because of deflection.

Who cares about deflection? You have to let your mind take over and drive the car... I use parallel english and my cue ball deflects all over the place. You can watch the cue ball curve when I shoot and I still make everything. You don't have to use a system, your mind does the work for you...

 

[CaptainJR]

Just a quick question or two. When you say "can't work", do you actually mean "can work, but requires that compensations be made elsewhere", and, if so, wouldn't you agree that that is the case for any method you might choose to use? In my mind, all methods of applying english can work, and by choosing one method over the other, we are simply trading one group of compensations for another group that better suits us. If you agree to that, then you should also agree that noone can possibly be wrong in this discussion, because the chosen method of applying english is, like so many other things, a matter of personal preference.

Aaron

I'm saying that according to the normal definition of parallel english, it doesn't work. Of course it can work if you make other compensations but then you are no longer using parallel english that is parallel to the true aiming line. That might be the problem here is we are comparing something that is so rock solid to something that can be adjusted. "Parallel" is either parallel or it isn't. BHE is very adjustable.

 

[CaptainJR]

Just a quick question or two. When you say "can't work", do you actually mean "can work, but requires that compensations be made elsewhere", and, if so, wouldn't you agree that that is the case for any method you might choose to use? In my mind, all methods of applying english can work, and by choosing one method over the other, we are simply trading one group of compensations for another group that better suits us. If you agree to that, then you should also agree that noone can possibly be wrong in this discussion, because the chosen method of applying english is, like so many other things, a matter of personal preference.

Aaron

I'm saying that according to the normal definition of parallel english, it doesn't work. Of course it can work if you make other compensations but then you are no longer using parallel english that is parallel to the true aiming line. That might be the problem here is we are comparing something that is so rock solid to something that can be adjusted. "Parallel" is either parallel or it isn't. BHE is very adjustable.


I just can't get myself to say that it is OK to call it parallel, if the line that it is parallel to is not the line that will make the shot without english.