Bias with Your Own Team's Playing Order? (long)
- Thread starter Get_A_Grip
- Start date
I'm merely responding to any new posts, like yours right now. I'm ready to start a totally new thread right now about teammates in general. That one could end-up being more lively than this one...
This thread has pretty much run it's course anyways...
JC
Coos Cues
This thread is a sad testament to the APA
I don’t understand. You say the only way you could get first place was to beat the weaker player 3-0. If you play the stronger player wouldn’t you have a chance to gain 3 wins while giving him three losses? If you beat the 2nd guy 3-0 and the first guy beats your teammate 2-1 or 3-0 you can’t pick up any ground.
If I had a chance to put 3 losses on the top player and overtake him I would jump at the chance.
An additional bonus is that if your teammate beat the weaker player 3-0 then you two would finish 1-2 (him first if you had more games) and the stronger player would finish 3rd. What a heroic night for the team!
But you’d rather create drama over a coin flip that you two weren’t even authorized to do.
No, this wasn't the top player in the LEAGUE, he was the top player on the other team. In the league this guy is in 11th place. So my teammate, who wanted to be second in the entire league, absolutely refused to play the guy in 11th place.
I just wanted to play whoever the coin flip decided. (fair) Hoping that I would have a chance to play a guy that I could get 3 wins from and maybe get first place in the league.
BTW, once I left the team, this teammate did take second place and our captain took third place in the league. So it all worked out exactly the way they wanted in the end.
I doubt it since you don't seem to be able to loosen your grip.
Oh sorry I totally misunderstood that part.
No I typically play against everyone in the league. 5 vs 5, full round robin, single game.
I stopped playing CPA(APA) a couple of years ago, because opposing captains would sacrifice their bottom end to save their guns, or the top shooters would do what you did and avoid playing me at all costs so they could maintain a bloated average.
The difference between you and me, is I would have never given let the decision to play the top shooter go to a coin flip. I would have politely offerred the match to my team mate letting him know beforehand that I'd be more than willing to take on the match. If he wanted it, he could have it. Otherwise I'd go at him (opponent) full guns blasting... I want the tough game, but I respect my team mates enough to give them the option.
That's fair enough. I just thought of one other thing that happened in my match with their strongest player. Just to try to demonstrate my desire for fairness.
In this league, if you get a table run, you actually get an extra game/point added to your individual stats. It doesn't affect the team score, but you can move up in the league by getting table runs or 8-ball breaks.
Well in my first game against their top player, he missed his opening shot and I ran out. So both teams marked me down for a table run. Two games later by others, my opponent mentioned that he's not sure that I really got a table run, because he thinks he made a solid on the break, and that I took solids when I ran out. In our league rules, you need to run all 7 balls and make the 8 ball for it to count.
Well, both teams left my table run because he discovered it two games later and he didn't sound sure. After our match and before they published the stats, I called the League Operator and told him to please remove my table run. I didn't want to win if I didn't deserve it, per the rules. After the match I did realize that I did take solids when I ran out, because stripes were definitely more difficult. I don't remember what ball he made on the break, but I figured that he had no reason to make it up.
JC
Coos Cues
Whatever it is it sucks.
That's why I'm moving leagues to one where every player on each team plays each other once each night. There is no way for the captain or anyone else to screw over a player with the playing order.
What's interesting to me, in my other league example where the top player in the league puts himself to play first EVERY week to play the weakest players on the other team, nobody bats an eyelash. I guess that is why things like that keep happening. Most guys prefer not to analyze these things, because they really don't want to know I guess...
Don't go counting your horses just yet. This new league sounds more similar to my own. In this format the amount of breaks a player gets in a night is dependant on their position in the order.
I suspect we may just see another "captian burnt me" thread in another year
Who cares about the break. Look at the stats. If there is any advantage with breaking, it isn't much if anything. I know my stance with gifting one player second place wouldn't be popular, but it's still a fact.Don't go counting your horses just yet. This new league sounds more similar to my own. In this format the amount of breaks a player gets in a night is dependant on their position in the order.
I suspect we may just see another "captian burnt me" thread in another year
I just hope that if any captains read this that at least one of them realize that if you're at the end of the season and two players are tied, and extra money, trophies, and an extra tournament are on the line, and neither play volunteers to play the strongest player -- you FLIP A COIN. If you arbitrarily assign one player who to play, then you are injecting bias and favoritism into the situation where it doesn't need to be added and where there is no benefit to the team regardless of who plays who.
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Given that the majority of responses in this thread disagree with you, and agree with the captain‘s decision, I’m guessing you might be disappointed in their response too.
Just sayin’...
Like I said, I know that I'm correct about this. It doesn't matter to me if the majority disagree. I know that guy's and especially pool players have huge egos. In fact, you must have a big ego IMO to excel at pool. It's what helps drive a player to get better.
But the ego has also convinced many that in public, you need to say things like I'm always going to volunteer to play the toughest player. Captain's convince themselves that THEY have the skill to determine the best match-up and playing order to make the team win or do better, when the reality is, who plays who is normally a wash if everyone plays their typical or average game.
A couple questions. Most amount of break and runs you have had in a league session? Most you have seen from another player? The break absolutely matters.
IMO there is no such thing as a tie between two players at the end of the season. There are plenty of statistical categories that could be used before resorting to flipping a coin. Nights played/games played, average, wins, losses, points won, points lost and that differential.
This league does not count break and runs. Only table runs. A table run being that all 15 balls are still on the table when you start your turn at the table and it must be your first time to the table. I think the most I've had was 8 table runs. And four 8-ball breaks. The most I've seen by the top player I think was 12 table runs.
On average, the break doesn't determine who wins the game. The breaker and the person who didn't break typically win a very similar number of the games, even using pro stats. The breaker only has a small advantage from the stats I've seen.
In this league, if two people have the exact same average at the end of the season, they count it as a tie. Trust me, I asked. There might be many different ways to break a tie, but in this league, they don't do that. I agree that it makes no sense, but that's how they do it in this league.
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The break doesn't determine who wins the game? I have seen many a times where the flip/lag determines who wins a match.
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I meant, if two players are playing say a race to 10. The stats that At Large posts indicate that the person who broke is only a small favorite to win each game (on average).
The one way that having the breaks helps a player get higher in the individual standings in this league is if they get an 8-ball break. You get an extra individual point/game for each 8-ball break and table run (but you don't need to break to get a table run).
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