Big Orange Classic a classic ripoff

D

dinovirus

Banned
The ad for the Big Orange Classic is shown below...

Big Orange Classic II - $5000 guaranteed.

Breakers Sports Bar and Grill is hosting its 2nd Big Orange Classic in Knoxville, TN on Oct. 29, 30 & 31. The last Big Orange Classic was won by Rodney Morris. The player auction raised over $14,500. The format is a race to 9, double elimination. Entry fee is $75.00. Also, we have added a Golf Tournament the following Monday Nov. 1st. (A,B,C,D Man Teams) $300 Entry Fee per team. Cash and Prizes given away. For More information contact Wes (865-688-6475) or Shannon Daulton (865-850-4572).

...Turns out that when you get there, pay your entry and settle in to play your matches, the $5000 magically disappears. 64 players showed up - the entry fee was $75 - that totals $4800, but there was only $5100 in the total purse. Thus the house ended up adding $300 to the tournament prize fund. Expanation given was that all they (the house) were doing was guaranteeing that there would be $5000 in the prize fund, NOT guaranteeing to add $5000 to the entries.

Seems to me that this is the kind of 'fine print' advertising of which we have had too much in pool over the years.

Here are some other interesting observations:

- the tournament started Friday night. That night (a busy night for the room) spectators were forced to pay an admission charge, as indeed they were all weekend. I'm not sure what it was but I'm sure it totalled more than $300.

- The cash and prizes giveaways were nowhere to be seen. A cue was raffled off one time Friday night, but it wasn't much of a cue, and who knows who won

- The tables were total crap - 4x8's of indeterminate origin. They had not been recovered in many months. The cloth was poorly installed and very slow. Most of the tables were far from level and many had dead rails.

In short, it was a big ripoff. The policy is this - host a tournament that doesn't cost you a nickel, but draws a big number of top players because it appears rich, then have a big calcutta (from which you extract a percentage), charge admission, maybe sell a couple of vendor booths, then hype it up as some kind of great event. Maybe make some fast money. No reason to spend any excess money on getting the tables done or adding to the prize fund. Repeat the process as often as possible.
 
This is just a chance to "plug" the BCA National 9-Ball event. It is $20,000 ADDED. (The money is already posted with the Plaza Casino).

Regardless of how many play, ALL the added money will be disbursed to the players. ALL information is posted on our website (www.playbca.com)

On a side note; it is hard to put on a tournament. Often times, pool players do not see all the "stuff" that goes on to provide a venue for an event. It is disheartening to me to see posts (like the one above) because of a "misunderstanding" between the promoter and the players. The promoters should be specific (and honest) in their advertising and the players should be aware of what the promoter is promising to do. If I read the ad correctly, it stated the payout would be $5000. It did not say added.

This sport is in need of a better "get along" attitude from everyone. There is no need to always wash our dirty laundry in the public forums.

Hope to see everyone at the Plaza in November (16th to 21st). The entries are still coming in and although we may not fill the fields we are "gonna shoot some pool"!

Mark Griffin
BCA Pool League
702-719-7665
 
That's too bad, the players obviously assumed that $5,000 guaranteed was added money, come next year the players will look back and remember what this tourny is about.
 
Why would anybody make that assumption? Added is added. Guaranteed is guaranteed.

What if only 40 players turned up? And the owner had to make up the difference?

And it is about time a poolroom owner started charging admission to watch the pros play. If the fans pay to watch then they will appreciate it more. LOL.

The Florida Pro tour added $7,000 to each stop yet the last two stops were not filled. Unfortunately we had some hurricanes scare people away. But it just shows that tournament directors are always taking a chance when they hold a tournament.

When you think about the 12 hour days they have to put in during the tournament plus all the preparation prior to the tournament I often wonder how any tournaments get held. They sure aren't in it for the money.

Jake
 
jjinfla said:
Why would anybody make that assumption? Added is added. Guaranteed is guaranteed.

What if only 40 players turned up? And the owner had to make up the difference?

And it is about time a poolroom owner started charging admission to watch the pros play. If the fans pay to watch then they will appreciate it more. LOL.

The Florida Pro tour added $7,000 to each stop yet the last two stops were not filled. Unfortunately we had some hurricanes scare people away. But it just shows that tournament directors are always taking a chance when they hold a tournament.

When you think about the 12 hour days they have to put in during the tournament plus all the preparation prior to the tournament I often wonder how any tournaments get held. They sure aren't in it for the money.

Jake
Click to expand...


JJinfla,

This is partly why a Mens pro tour is nowhere to be found, because of the reasons you listed above. And also why the womens pro tour is just a limited tour at best. Too much risk, not enough rewards and too many fingers in the pie.

Did anyone see the bowling alley setup at miller lite field on an espn highlight today?? A friggin bowling alley set up in the middle of a baseball field for a bowling championship! It just goes to show everyone that the bigger the playing surface the more spectators will show up! The more money that will be put into that sport or game.
 
dinovirus said:
The ad for the Big Orange Classic is shown below...

Big Orange Classic II - $5000 guaranteed....
Click to expand...

Dinovirus, not too long ago, I read a thread on another pool-related forum in which some folks were curious about the difference between "guaranteed" and "added." There are some who truly do not know the difference. From what I read on the Home page of AzBilliards in "The Main Event," the Big Orange Classic II tournament went exactly how it was advertised, $5,000 guaranteed. It also sounded like the extracurricular activities provided a great time to be had by all with the 10-ball game and golf tournament. The player roster was strong, which must have provided some good rail-side entertainment. :p

The post written by JJinFLA reminded me how those hurricanes sure can cause a lot of turmoil for TD's and promoters. The U.S. Open comes to mind with Hurricane Isabel and the dreadful aftermath of 9/11. The Trump Marina 10-Ball Challenge experienced turnout problems because of a major snow storm a few years back. The tournament was actually delayed by a day or two. Then there was the first Big Apple tourney in NYC that experienced a major blackout in the Northeast United States the night of the players meeting. Nobody could fly in or out! There were flooding from a major rainstorm that occurred with the Capital City Classic in Philly. IMHO, I believe most TD's and promoters would desire to make a profit, but many times, I think they hold these tournaments because of the passion they have for the game and desire to make something happen. Without these folks, the pool world sure would be a lot more dismal than it is today, and they should be commended, every single one of them.

Dinovirus, is there a tournament that you have attended recently that you did enjoy? I remember the recent thread by AzHousePro about an article he was writing for a local newspaper, requesting opinions from pool players and pool room owners and TD's about what features they like to see in an event. What features would you consider to be needed in order to create THE perfect pool tournament? I have a few thoughts, and I'd be interested to hear yours! :)

Here's a couple from me. It is ideal when a host pool room or a promoter provides a hotel name with a discounted player's rate for advanced planning. I really like it when they have designated match times, as opposed to hanging around wondering WHEN a player's next match will occur. The seeding process, if there is one, should be published BEFORE the tournament, and when the tournament slots are drawn, it is nice when it is done out in the open. If a tournament has strict rules about player qualifications, they should stick to their guns and not change the rules to accommodate certain players. All players should be treated equal (IMO). In the tournament room, it is always desirable to have food and beverages available to the spectators and players.

Would be interested to hear the thoughts of others! :)

JAM
 
OK Kid, You Asked

Hey baby, the perfect tournament would have a 1 million dollar winner takes all prize. We would be staying in the Royal Suite at the Ritz. Lobster and steak with plenty of cold beer or DP if you wished. Now for the perfect part, I win the whole shabang!!!!!!!!!!!

See if ya can put it together for me.
Purdman :cool:
 
Hi JAM,

Great post!!! Other than more added money for the event, I think you did great.

My top event as a TD several years ago was sixty four players. Along with other members of our staff, many hours were spent trying to give the players the very best possible. The event ran smoothly. All the money was paid out. We were asked excitedly when we would do it again. Several weeks later, the "glow" seemed to disappear. We suddenly had a list of complaints. My usual question was,"why didn't you say something during the event?" The pat answers were, "I didn't want to spoil it", "I didn't think you'd listen" or my favorite, "I thought you would mark me as a complainer" As I mentioned, it was years ago. We gave up. Just once, I wish those players who keep saying they could do it better, actually try!
 
Jam,

John DiToro made it thru year #2 with the new Florida Pro Tour. With help from the Seminole Tribe they managed to ADD $7,000 to each of the 8 stops and $15,000 to the Championship Finale. The tour is limited to 64 players. $150 entry fee. And the top 24 are in the money. Players must compete in 2 stops to be eligible for the State Championship finale.

John runs a well organized tournament and he should be commended for providing a venue for the players to show their skills. He lists all the scores on the master bracket sheet. And has all the starting times of the matches listed as well. From what I have seen he keeps pretty close to the times. And once the match is called the players have 15 minutes to get to the table or their match is forfeited.

It would be nice if Mike could find space on AZ to post the standings of the players in the tour.

I hope the Tour returns in 2005. I have not heard anything about plans for next year. Maybe a couple stops will be held at the new Seminole casinos. Perhaps Keith can make a couple appearances.

Jake
 
JJinFLA said:
Maybe a couple stops will be held at the new Seminole casinos. Perhaps Keith can make a couple appearances.
Click to expand...

Jake, Keith would swim a river to be able to attend one of those Seminole tournaments in Florida. The payouts are THE HIGHEST I have seen for any regional tour.

The obstacles which hinder many a pool player's desires is the huge nut of attending tournaments. Many times, Keith is stuck $1,500 and $2,000 before he hits the first ball. Imagine going to two or three of these events a month, knowing there can only be ONE winner. Even if you come in third or fourth place, you are lucky to break even, unless you are capable of grinding, but that's a topic for another thread (LOL).

One pro player I know stated if he had not come in second place at a recent tournament, he was on his way to Florida to get a job to help with the recent hurricane damage because he was dead broke. Another player I know recently did get a job because he needs to maintain a roof over his head, to include his young child and wife. Our expenditures for 2003 exceeded what my daughter earned annually for a living. :eek:

Have you ever noticed that the payouts of major events broadcast on ESPN never shows the money amount? It is because it is shameful when compared to other sports competitions on TV these days. The lawn mower race drivers make more money than pro pool players. :(

I have noticed that every single one of Allen Hopkins' events are a huge success. IMHO, it is because events like the Super Billiards Expo are geared to players of all calibers -- pros, amateurs, leagues, et cetera. The pro event in Valley Forge is limited to 64 players, and the field is full before the first day of the tournament.

Most TD's and promoters I know these days don't know how many players they are going to draw until the hour of the players' meeting when everybody shows up. This is a big stumbling block for the organizers. Because of the huge money-spending public consisting of amateur and league players, events that include them have a better chance of breaking even or making a profit.

The current trend of ring games on the horizon is a great attraction. Everybody likes to see these events. Most players I know, though, are unable to post up $3,000 to $5,000 one, two, three months in advance because they need their monies to continue their trek on the tournament trail. Sponsorship is the only solution to this dilemma (IMO).

I have run tournaments when I was younger, and I know that it is impossible to please everybody. There will always be somebody who thinks the equipment sucks, the wait time is a bummer, the rules aren't fair, et cetera. The host pool room, TD, and/or promoter who create these events are lucky to break even, much less make a profit, especially in the pro player arena. Why do they do it, year after year? Because they have a passion for the game and desire to excel the sport. These guys should receive a round of applause, not un-constructive criticism from naysayers.

In conclusion, it is Eydie and Bob Romano, Allen Hopkins, Greg Sullivan, both Behrmans, Glass City Open organizers, Ms. Dyer and the Big Apple in NYC, Mike Zuglan and Joss Cues, Mike Janis and Viking Cues, Planet Pool 9-Ball staff, host pool rooms like the one in Big Orange Classic II, the tireless efforts of Tommy Kennedy and his tour, Fall Follies in Starksville, MS, the Seminole Tribe of Florida, and a whole slew I may be forgetting at the time of this writing that make pool dreams a reality for pool players. Without them, this pool world would not be as bright, and with them, it makes things a little nicer, providing golden opportunities for players like Keith McCready. :)

JAM
 
Thanks JAM,

You speak the truth! Good luck to you an Keith on the book and in the events you can make.

Jerry
 
jjinfla said:
When you think about the 12 hour days they have to put in during the tournament plus all the preparation prior to the tournament I often wonder how any tournaments get held. They sure aren't in it for the money.

Jake
Click to expand...

Oh my god no! Not a 12 hour day at a thankless job! Those poor tournament directors. Let's give them an extra $1000 or so to make them feel better.

I don't know about you, Jim, but last time I checked there were about 200 million people in this country working long hours at thankless jobs for lousy pay. And I think every single one of them, if they did a poor job at something they would hear about it from their boss and maybe get fired.

Just for the record, I've been to hundreds of tournaments that were great. I even went to a couple of the Florida Tour events and found them to be terrific (for the most part). Crappy events, like the Big Orange Classic, are by far the exception rather than the rule, and my hope is that by posting these criticisms maybe people will read them, avoid such events in the future, and maybe, just maybe, changes will occur. Maybe that's a lofty ambition.

Jam asked what I like to see in a tournament. Mostly I just like for the tables to be green and to have six pockets. I'm going to have a good time. But I do prefer that all financial aspects of the payout are advertised for all to see. Thus if you're working from a basis of 64 players, let's see the precise payouts for all cash finishers on the tournament flyer, long in advance of people showing up to play.
 
Instead of precise payouts, which could very depending on entrants, how about a percentage breakdown? 1st 50% , 2nd 20% etc etc. As for the players who might have to get a shitty job if they don't cash oh well. I can't feel sorry for them. I have a good friend who plays and cashes regulary on the Fla tour and in between tourneys? He has a job. Yeah it's a shame you can't make a living doing what you love but thats life.

Andy
 
Long

Here is a post I did a few years ago regarding what it takes to promote an event. Maybe it will give you some insight into what goes on.

Eydie


Again, I am being faced with some mean spirited controversy, so I elected to write a semi short article regarding hosting a NATIONAL tournament. National events differ considerably from local and state. I hope all who are interested will appreciate what I have to say.

Each and every tournament is different. It all completely depends on what property i.e. hotel, resort or casino and the area with which you are dealing.

The sport of pool is unbelievably difficult to promote. It's very hard to get good sponsors outside of the industry. Sponsorships inside the industry are tapped out, so if you don't have a long standing relationship with the business, you are out of luck. Can you imagine if you were a billiard related company, how many tournament directors and others would be banging down your door to get free merchandise from you? It's even hard to barter in this industry; everyone wants to barter and when that happens, nothing gets paid.

When we secure a beer/liquor company, this just means that they will work with the host location to give THEM better prices on their purchase for the incoming customers. So, when you see that we have a beer special of $2.00 per beer, this just means that the company has lowered the cost of the beer so the host can sell more at a volume. In addition, the beer/liquor company will supply signs and other items for the event with the name of the event and the special that they are pushing for that weekend. I was lucky to be able to get Budwesier to sponsor Earl Strickland for the Midwest Expo/Open. They completely took care of hosting him.

Let's first talk about what is required for running and promoting a successful event.

The major issue is to get the word out and make this tournament one that all would like to attend. This takes time and money, and someone has to do it. When you are running major national events, it's a full time job. If it's a smaller venue, it's still an unbelievable amount of work to do.

The tools of the trade consist of: a good computer with a high performance copier; one that has the capacity to keep enough memory to host a small city, a fax machine and small copy machine to duplicate registration forms with attached checks for your records, a gold card for one of your local office supply companies for the huge amount of reams of paper, pens, toners, cartridges, clips, file folders and so on..... Then there are the posters and other items that need to be done professionally at a huge ADDITIONAL expense.

Ok, here's the fun stuff... The monthly phone bill! Wowzers, would you like to trade? They have been in excess of $900 per month when we did the expo.

Furthermore, there is maxing out your credit card or savings account to hold the host hotel, resort or casino. Did you know that the host area requires a deposit ranging from $1,000 to $25,000 depending on where you are having the event? Remember, you don't get any interest accumulating while this money sits in the hands of the hotel. Also, there is an additional cost of insurance that the hotel requires to cover any damages occurred during the event which is in excess of thousands of dollars a year. If you don't meet the requirements of your room count, you loose your cash! You never get enough comped rooms to cover you and your staff. It's always additional rooms for which you end up paying, and there is no break for us since we have to pay the same rate that you do! Then there is paying the staff and feeding everyone. In some cases, we get some free food, but in most cases, we get discount tickets for staff. I like this comment I have heard from several, "Oh, they get a real nice suite in which to stay!" Sure we do, but who has a chance to use the thing? All you do is pass out from near exhaustion when you get to it.

Advertising... Ah yes the display ad! Let me give you a few figures here. For national coverage magazines, you bet you can expect to pay in excess of $600 to $1,500 for half and full page ads, and COLOR IS ADDITIONAL per month! For local state magazines papers, the cost of these range from approximately $75.00 to $600.00 and once again COLOR IS ADDITIONAL per month!

If you don't advertise like one promoter I know who didn't, you sit back and wonder why you're not getting the players. You loose your shirt and swear off ever doing another event while bashing the promoters who bust their hind ends to get the word out about their event. Jealously and sabotage run rampaged in this profession.

Here comes the bills for the banners and other related computer ads. First, let's find a good webmaster.... Oh boy that's a doozy. Finding someone who will update your site on a regular basis before the deadlines expire is priceless. Personally, we have gone through 4 webmasters to finally find a good one. I am not saying all webmasters are bad, don't think that.. I am just saying that finding a good one is hard to do, and you get what you pay for. Now these people don't work for free, so you have that monthly bill to add to your ever growing pile of bills per month. Webmasters can charge from $75.00 and up per month to maintain your site and at least $1000.00 to design it! Now, here comes the bills for the banner ads you have running on all billiard related sites. They start at $100 per month. Another cost is owning your domain name along with yearly fees of maintenance of the web site.

One can't forget direct mail! That's cost of paper, toners and stamps. If you have a mailing list like mine, we are talking 1000+ players at 37 cents each. That's $370.00 plus the cost of toner and paper, envelopes, stickers, and my time!

When you are hosting a national tournament where anyone can play, you have to reach all ends of the world to get the word out. It takes all of the above and more to make something like this happen. It takes at least a year of planning.

Now that you have some information (I could go on for pages), let's talk about the cost of bringing in the pool tables. For example, for a 40 table event (that's one truck load), you can expect to pay a minimum of $150 and up for each table. You can't just call and say I need 10 tables; it's a truck load or nothing. Now this does not apply to those who own their own tables, although I feel I am speaking for those who do, and they would NOT want to deliver only 16 or so tables. It's not worth their time..... This is why it has to be a truck load. Now let's add the cost of hanging the lights which in most cases is additional. Now let's add up the cost of the stolen cue balls and racks of balls in addition to racks and broken mechanisms. As the tournament promoter, I am responsible for all of the balls. When they get stolen, and they do on a consistent basis, I have to pay for them!

One can't forget tournament direction...... In my case, I do NOT play pool, I just promote the sport. Most of you know that Bob has played for many years so this is something that we felt we could do together. Bob wants to participate in the tournament, and I have other things to do during our event like "putting out forest fires with a garden hose."

I did tournament direction for about a year with Cecil Messer and GMPA Productions in Indiana. I found out quickly that it was something I did not want to do. It's an unbelievable amount of stress and tempers can fly quickly in addition to a lot of hours and many different personalties with which one has to deal. I will not disclose other tournament directors fees, but I can assure you that it can be in the thousands of dollars.

Here's another issue that most don't realize, if you are working a full time job and trying to promote a national venue, you can just expect to loose time and money. For example, Bob is an independent construction contractor. During the expo, I can't even tell you how many times he had to take days/weeks off and negotiate the contract or promote the tournament in some fashion. He did not get paid for all that time off!

Registration fees. Depending on what type of event you are promoting, you can expect to pay $10.00 and up for each event. This money goes to paying all of the above that I just mentioned. Registration fees can be adjusted to how many people are in the field. The more people you have in the tournament, the less you need for registration fees. You never know your final count until the day of the actual event. How many of you pool procrastinators show up last minute and expect to
enter? That is why a late fee was instilled. This was to help get a more accurate count of people who were dedicated to playing in the event were guaranteed a spot. The extra money from late fees helps pay all of the additional costs to the last minute entries. Whether or not you realize it, this causes another delay to the actual start time.

Since people are doing math these days, calculate some of the larger Vegas events. I think it may surprise you. Before you can do the math, you need all of the expenses in order to get your figures correct. I find it as a complete insult when people tell me they know how much I made because they did the math. HA! Ask me for all the records and bills associated with the event then open your mouth. My events have been successful because they worked, although I am in arrears for the promotion. This is something that takes time to establish because it is a business.

Added Money~ For example: In the expo, we added a total of $15,000. In the 8 ball, we added $31.00 per person, and we could do that from the other additional resources that accompanied the expo. With the Windy City Open, there were NO other resources to rely upon. Any added money had to come directly from our pockets.

Our intentions from the beginning of starting these events was to start a business. We were well aware of all of the hidden costs associated in running events but elected to go forth to establish the business. We expected to put money into the business at first and within a reasonable period of time start to make money from it. Should we not make money at some point? Would you work 24/7 with no pay?

100% Payback... The money has to come from some place to pay everything. You cannot expect for the promoters who DO NOT have cash sponsorships to be able to bring to you a 100% payback event. It's impossible. You cannot expect for the promoter to pay for all of the things I just mentioned out of pocket. I hope that some of you can understand this. We are working extremely hard to promote the sport with great hotel rates, food and beverage specials, and other fun things for you to participate. We do our very best with the payouts and the money that is available. With continued support and trust from this industry, we hope to continue to bring you these events.

In addition, I would like to thank all of you who have supported us. Our sincere appreciation goes out to you.

Eydie
 
Bravo, excellent discourse, excellent reading, very informative. Thanks for all your hard work - hopefully some of the chronic complainers will read it as well.
 
Nice post! I for one appreciate the efforts of those individuals that strive to expand the opportunities for recreational players such as myself to both play and watch some of the best.

BTW I need to find someone to talk to about getting a better parking spot.
 
Thanks again To Bob and Eydie for their efforts to promote our sport. As I'm sure you have read, the majority of the players think the Expo was a great event. There's always someone dis-satisfied no matter what you do. They can't seem to see the big picture of the promotion or the expense. Greedy people have held this sport back for way too long. Sam
 
Eydie,

Good post. You have a not-for-profit business. It may not have started that way but that is what it looks like.

Unfortunately most pool players have no idea what the difference between gross and net is. Neither do they have any business sense.

I had one guy tell me they must be making a lot of money - look at how much they are charging us to play. He could not even understand that all of that was paid out.

I heard Tommy Kennedy talking about how many miles he puts on his car. Gas and upkeap of the car is a big expense, plus wear and tear on his bodydriving all over.

Players will not sign up ahead of time because they do not want to risk losing their entry fee. They want the TD to risk everything and they won't risk anything. It might start waking some players up if they arrive at a tournament only to find the brackets filled.

Keep up the good work.

Jake
 
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