BIH in the kitchen

jchance

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm sure this rule has been discussed here before, so sorry if it is a duplicate thread but am bringing this up as the situation came up in my regional 14.1 tournament in Paris on Saturday.

Midway through the match, my opponent scratched with the CB in a pocket so I had BIH from the kitchen. The balls were situated near the racking area in such a way that I didn't want to disturb them and risk selling out a ball, not uncommon in 14.1 I think.

My preferred shot was therefore to play an intentional foul and take the 1-point penalty, safe in the knowledge that my opponent had fouled on the previous shot and would be the first to get to 3 consecutive fouls if she chose to continue the sequence of intentional fouls.

I wanted to check my shot with the tournament director before playing it, as I had seen a shot contested on another table during the competition, which was kinda similar. The TD said I had to shoot the CB out of the kitchen, so I placed the CB on the headstring near to one of the long rails. I shot into the opposite long rail with inside english, so the CB went out of the kitchen, span back into the kitchen off the first rail, contacted the second rail on the side I shot from and eventually came to rest in the jaws of the corner pocket.

My opponent chose to kick two rails behind the stack (not sure if this was an intentional foul or an attempted safety) and sold out. I ran 14 and then 9 on my next inning to win the match.

I guess I was slightly fortunate as I left my opponent corner-hooked where I could have easily scratched. However, in my opponent's position I would have chosen to take the second foul intentionally and shoot from a better CB position next time.

I don't see why in the first place I couldn't have just placed the CB on the headrail and rolled it an inch along the rail. Apparently the reason is because it could be interpreted as somehow more unsportsmanlike, although the TD said the penalty would have been the same (a foul and -1 point).

If intentional fouls are accepted when the CB is close to the stack in the racking area, should they not also be accepted when the CB is in the kitchen? I see parallels with the game of one pocket, where players often reposition the CB with no attempt to contact an object ball, choosing to take the 1 ball penalty.

Or is having BIH in the kitchen in 14.1 a unique situation which requires you to shoot out of the kitchen for it to be considered 'a shot'? In that case, surely intentionally not doing so i.e. repositioning the CB within the kitchen, should have a greater penalty than simply -1 point.

Incidentally the rules we use (in French) come from the FFB and are on page 25 of this doc: http://www.ffbillard.com/global/telechargements/file.php?id=27589. This specific situation doesn't seem to be covered, so I think maybe the federation should add something to the rules to make it clear.

And the situation on the other table was slightly different in that a player had his opponent on 2 fouls and chose to play the CB from the middle of the table (no BIH) back into the kitchen with no attempt to contact an object ball.

I guess the main question in all this is whether any of the shots would or should be considered unsportsmanlike behaviour. Personally I think both shots were fine but I don't think everyone will see things in the same way!

All opinions/facts welcome please :)
 
If you have a BIH in the kitchen and you intentionally do not try to shoot the cueball out of the kitchen first, it's always an unsportsmanlike conduct and -15p penalty to you and a new opening shot to a full rack. No clever shots allowed in the kitchen with BIH.
 
Since you didn't want to hit a ball, you didn't have to go out of the kitchen.
When playing straight pool, intentional faults are tolerated.

The rule is clear, you have to go out of the kitchen before hitting a ball.
No ball hit = no need go pass the headstring :)
 
Since you didn't want to hit a ball, you didn't have to go out of the kitchen.
When playing straight pool, intentional faults are tolerated.

The rule is clear, you have to go out of the kitchen before hitting a ball.
No ball hit = no need go pass the headstring :)

That is incorrect. You have to make an effort to play across the kitchen line, otherwise it is ruled unsportsmanlike conduct. Intentional fouls are okay but you have to hit the cueball across the kitchen line. Will post the rule quote later, not easy to do so with my phone.
 
Since you didn't want to hit a ball, you didn't have to go out of the kitchen.
When playing straight pool, intentional faults are tolerated.

The rule is clear, you have to go out of the kitchen before hitting a ball.
No ball hit = no need go pass the headstring :)

With BIH in the kitchen you do have to shoot past the head string, you can also put the cue on the line and shoot a masse shot bringing it back behind the line. Either way it would result in -1, but if you do not shoot past the line at least it is not a legal shot.

In my league we just say you have to shoot past the line, anything else is not allowed. We have never used the unsportsmanlike foul rule, though I have thought about it. But hard to contest without a referee at every table, and that's not happening !

Steve
 
I wanted to check my shot with the tournament director before playing it, as I had seen a shot contested on another table during the competition, which was kinda similar.

And the situation on the other table was slightly different in that a player had his opponent on 2 fouls and chose to play the CB from the middle of the table (no BIH) back into the kitchen with no attempt to contact an object ball.

I don't think there is any question that in your situation, you must hit the ball out of the kitchen.

What I found curious was your reference to what happened earlier on a different table. Someone had his opponent on two fouls and chose to shoot the cue ball from the middle of the table to the kitchen with no attempt to contact an object ball. THIS IS A
LEGAL SHOT IN 14.1!

What was the ruling on that situation?
 
I just checked the WPA rules and the situation isn't covered.

6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.
The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game.

It is said that you must hit the cue ball out of the kitchen before hitting an object ball.
In this situation, the player didn't want to hit an object ball.

Maybe the WPA rules need an update to address this situation.
 
I don't think there is any question that in your situation, you must hit the ball out of the kitchen.

What I found curious was your reference to what happened earlier on a different table. Someone had his opponent on two fouls and chose to shoot the cue ball from the middle of the table to the kitchen with no attempt to contact an object ball. THIS IS A
LEGAL SHOT IN 14.1!

What was the ruling on that situation?

Hi Dennis, the ruling was that shot was OK, although the incoming player called over the TD to get a ruling before taking his next shot. Incidentally, he then attempted to play safe, hitting a thin slice of a ball up the other end of the table....but scratched in the corner near to where he was shooting from, incurring -1 point and the -15 penalty for 3 consecutive fouls.

It's interesting that the few people who have responded here on AZ think you must shoot past the headstring (apart from Zickoss who also plays in France), whereas I posted a similar thread on Facebook in French and most French players said there was no need to hit the ball out of the kitchen.

I'm going to bring the threads to the attention of our federation so they can see that opinion is clearly divided!
 
One of the reasons for the rule the CB must come out of the kitchen is without this rule the incoming player could place the CB in the jaws of the pocket ,tap the CB and leave the opponent corner hooked
 
I just checked the WPA rules and the situation isn't covered.



It is said that you must hit the cue ball out of the kitchen before hitting an object ball.
In this situation, the player didn't want to hit an object ball.

Maybe the WPA rules need an update to address this situation.

The wording of almost every rule leaves some room for discussion.

Regardless of how you or I feel this rule is worded, it has been well established
that the cueball has to cross the headstring to avoid unsportmanlike conduct.

gr. Dave
 
Last edited:
The wording of almost every room leaves some room for discussion.

Regardless of how you or I feel this rule is worded, it has been well established
that the cueball has to cross the headstring to avoid unsportmanlike conduct.

gr. Dave
It's said that touching an object ball without crossing the line intentionally is an unsportmanlike conduct. Since he didn't hit an object ball, the rule doesn't apply.

I'm not saying it's a good shot, just saying that this situation isn't covered by the rules.
 
It's said that touching an object ball without crossing the line intentionally is an unsportmanlike conduct. Since he didn't hit an object ball, the rule doesn't apply.

I'm not saying it's a good shot, just saying that this situation isn't covered by the rules.

the rule states that intentionally not crossing the line and hitting a ball is unsportsmanlike....a very logical & natural further interpretation would be that intentionally not crossing the line and also not hitting a ball, is also unsportsmanlike......

its doesn't make sense that (when intentionally not leaving the kitchen) that the penalty is greater if you hit a ball, than if you don't.....
 
It's said that touching an object ball without crossing the line intentionally is an unsportmanlike conduct. Since he didn't hit an object ball, the rule doesn't apply.

I'm not saying it's a good shot, just saying that this situation isn't covered by the rules.

It is covered by the rules, you just choose to interpret the rules different from
most other people. It's a free world and you can choose to interpret the wording
of the rules as you like but don't try your shot in competition and expect to not
have an unsportsmanlike foul called because it will be (correctly) called.

gr. Dave
 
Hi Dennis, the ruling was that shot was OK, although the incoming player called over the TD to get a ruling before taking his next shot. Incidentally, he then attempted to play safe, hitting a thin slice of a ball up the other end of the table....but scratched in the corner near to where he was shooting from, incurring -1 point and the -15 penalty for 3 consecutive fouls.

It's interesting that the few people who have responded here on AZ think you must shoot past the headstring (apart from Zickoss who also plays in France), whereas I posted a similar thread on Facebook in French and most French players said there was no need to hit the ball out of the kitchen.

I'm going to bring the threads to the attention of our federation so they can see that opinion is clearly divided!

Bad play behind the head string mentions playing a ball inside the kitchen intentionally but it is also applied to making a deliberate foul by playing the cueball within kitchen. This is how it is played according to the EPBF rules. I don't know why they are not enforced in France. It's common that the players, even the professionals don't know the rules. You must ask an official referee.

Best regards,
Mikko Jäntti
EPBF level 2 referee
 
Basically the rule takes out the possibility leaving your opponent frozen to the head corner pocket jaws corner hooked everytime you get a BIH from the kitchen.
 
6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.
The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game.


I just checked the WPA rules and the situation isn't covered.



It is said that you must hit the cue ball out of the kitchen before hitting an object ball.
In this situation, the player didn't want to hit an object ball.

Maybe the WPA rules need an update to address this situation.

It looks to me like the rule is fine. Look at the bolded part of the rule. It is not saying that you must cross the head string only if you are attempting to hit a ball. It says you must cross the headstring.
 
It looks to me like the rule is fine. Look at the bolded part of the rule. It is not saying that you must cross the head string only if you are attempting to hit a ball. It says you must cross the headstring.

Bingo, Dennis!:cool:
 
Hi Dennis, the ruling was that shot was OK, although the incoming player called over the TD to get a ruling before taking his next shot. Incidentally, he then attempted to play safe, hitting a thin slice of a ball up the other end of the table....but scratched in the corner near to where he was shooting from, incurring -1 point and the -15 penalty for 3 consecutive fouls.

I did what the above player did 3 or 4 times last night. My guy was on the first foul. Partial rack with no good shots. Sent it up to the top rail making his next shot difficult.Standard response. Happens all the time. Stephan Cohen would know.


In a tournament a few months ago, I was on the other side of the above situation and did the exact thing. Two times I thought I was thinning the rack, missed each time. The third time I hit it too thick and scratched in the bottom pocket. Finals of our tournament. At the time of the scratch, I needed about 5 and he needed about 15. Turned the tables on myself, but made a good safe on the new rack and drew first blood.
 
I recalled looking at some of the 14.1 videos that were posted in that thread, and reading this thread brought to mind an occurrence of a player keeping the ball in the kitchen for an intentional foul.

"4. Hohmann 152 and out about 10 years ago. Great precision. Beautiful play. http://youtu.be/ZlEqBKHjYiY "

It was Hohmann's second foul. Forgive me if this isn't on point. I wouldn't think there would be a different rule in place for that match, but I may of course be mistaken.
 
I recalled looking at some of the 14.1 videos that were posted in that thread, and reading this thread brought to mind an occurrence of a player keeping the ball in the kitchen for an intentional foul.

"4. Hohmann 152 and out about 10 years ago. Great precision. Beautiful play. http://youtu.be/ZlEqBKHjYiY "

It was Hohmann's second foul. Forgive me if this isn't on point. I wouldn't think there would be a different rule in place for that match, but I may of course be mistaken.

Hohmann's second foul was a standard 14.1 tactical foul because he didn't have a BIH. With a BIH that shot would've been an unsportsmanlike conduct.
 
Back
Top