Billiard Room Design & Ownership

man oh man what did i start !! iwas just trying to get some info on becoming a table supply dealer. in my neck of the woods im the only game in the area. so im always getting people asking for tables . i send them to capitol billiards in sacramento which is about 70 miles south of me. my "pool hall " is fine i have 11 nine footers and 3 coin ops.(for our leagues). i just want too sell tables! i have a full cue repair shop here, i make about 20 customs a year, i set up and recover tables in our area when im asked to , so why not sales too.
 
Looking at opening 2 halls.

This has been a rather spirited discussion and interesting.
Dave I know your hall and have played there several times. Rumor has it you are looking to expand. Best of luck. If my projects take flight I will be contacting you.

I am currently looking to purchase a turn key hall locally. Its 5000 sqft and the rent per month is 2550.00 per month. Its expandable to 7000 sqft. Currently 16 tables. Unfortunately the owners of the hall didnt get more than a 5 yr lease with no gaurrenttes or options. Bad move there.

Its my understanding owner of the property is a tough nut if you get my drift. Current rent is 30,600 @ a 1.96 per sqft if my math is correct. Utilities very from about 550 to 750 a month depending on the season. The joint has a bar, kitchen and simple snacks. I have been offered the equipment and am seeing about a take over. They are grossing between 5500 and 7500 a month depending on the season. There is def room for improvement. They do not do any advertising or hosting of events.

I have second location available to me that is 3600 sqft. Starting rent will be 2000 or a bit under. That would be 24000 a year for arguements sake @ 1.80 per sqft plus utilities. I am figuring Max 30k in renovation to open the door. Prob less. I am a contractor so labor for the renovations is going to be close to nonexistent. For that which I am not qualified to do I am horse trading with my brethren in the contracting industry.

Currently I have access to a pool hall that is for sale about 2 hrs from me. Comes with 15 Gandy Big G's and 2 7 foot tables. The price tag is 25k with every bit of equipment that is in the pool hall. Counter, service station obsevation tables etc.
I will be doing wine and beer and simple foods. The landlords own a restaurant adjacent to the building. There will be a full menu for back door take out.

The building is 45x80. 45x30 of the building is at a higher elevation which will make for the observation and bar area. It will also house 2 to 4 7 foor tables for league play.
I am trying to think outside the box. As I cant go full upscale I am thinking mid scale in an eclectic way. I have local artists that would like to display their wares. I am also thinking pairing wines and cheeses along with other simple foods. Restaurant billiards halls seem to be the trend. I think my idea is sim but sufficiently different that it would attract attention. I also plan on making the hall attractive women.

Times def have changed and as far as I am concerned if you cant attract the ladies you are loosing out on a large portion of the market.
I am also looking at installing 2 Gabriel 3C tables as we have a large hispanic and asian population in the area. 3C is thier prefered game and there is nobody catering to them.

League play is very strong in the area. APA divisions. I think I can capture eight 8 ball teams in each hall. I also believe I can host an entire division in the second hall for APA 9 ball on the 9 footers.
The smaller of the halls is a drive-to destination. It is in a section of town where it would be inconvient for questionable characters to come to unless they have transportation. There is a school close enough that any nafarious activity is an instant fellony.
Currently there are no pool halls in the city. I am dealing with a population of over 30,000.
Poor management and small mindedness kills.

Bottom line. I am looking for some input to go about this the right way and only have to do it once. What I am looking to do is move away from the contracting. I have been doing it a long time and have not gotten injured as of yet and want to keep it that way.

Sorry for being so long winded. :)
 
my 2 cents

I read almost all the posts and I am from the midwest...I agree with the statement pool players do not support a room anymore. That is because I think most of us a have predefined notion of what a pool player is. The APA player with a 3 average, are they a player in your eyes??? I have found the backbone of the billiard business are the bangers who wish they could play half as good as I or you...yep, they are the ones who order buckets of beer, come in early to shoot a few practice games and stay late to finish their beer and play a few more games with their buddies. The good players usually drink their sodas and play their 4 or 5 league games and hit the road. Try posting even a race to 5 tourney ABC division with C getting spotted 2 on the wire by an A and you might get 30 entries in this area...eliminate the A players from entering and run just a BC tourney and the number jumps to about 60.........mmmmmmmmmmmm. The bangers are the ones who keep these rooms running for the few of us who have been blessed with some sort of talent for the game. If you focus toward the mediocre player, get him into good equipment for cheap and let him plug your tables away you will have a good customer base and a profitable one. Treat them special and run promos for their capabilities and you would be suprised on the outcome. By the way my services are for hire. My consulting fees are $2500.00 an hour with all expenses paid.....PM me if you are interested!
 
Billiard Halls / Pool Halls

What do you guys think on an alcohol free and even smoke free operations? Do any of you think that it is possible to run a successful operation?

I am really considering this type of facility and have been working on the business concept for going on 16 years.

I've operated one small arcade type pool hall in the past and I am about to open another one with an added value item (pizza franchise) but even this second operation is small by comparison to what I am planning to establish in the near future.

I intend to use this operation as a stepping stone to take it the next level. On one hand I feel saddened that the industry is currently comprised of a majority of smoke head drunk bangers that have no value to add to viability of the game itself. On the other I am thinking that this means opportunity if it is marketed correctly and can lead to a classic billiards operation unlike anything seen.
:cool:
 
Smoke free is growing everywhere. Here in Illinois the state goes smoke free on Jan 1. People will need to adapt. I smoke but an hour or 2 without a cig isn't the end of the world. Alcohol free - IMO I doubt that would fly anywhere as a law. While lack of smoking and alcohol may hinder some business I'm sure some others do just fine. I would think new rooms opening would probably be smoke free so as not to have to change down the road.
 
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on the booze

I wasn't really thinking it should be a law (like prohibition) but was wondering IF you guys think a real billiards operation could run WITHOUT alcohol??? With the liability the way it is nowadays, and the added costs associated with regulations and the expenses of serving alcohol factored with all of the baggage it brings - could a pool hall survive and be profitable without serving??? I am thinking that it is possible and that it would make the same profits after factoring all related issues with booze. And maybe, just maybe the billiard industry can be reactivated based upon knowing how to play the game compared to being just another drunk banger that wishes he could be a real hustler...
 
The pool rooms I frequented in NY back in the 60's served no alkyhol. Times were different then - you went to a pool hall to play pool. Everything wasn't micro-analysed as it is today (just browse the main forum). Most rooms have progressed with the times to add other diversions, a kitchen, a bar, etc as it seems rather difficult to make it just on table time and cokes. IMO a room will do better with alkyhol especially if you want to have a big time operation.
 
The sound of the game

As much as I like music it really sounds cool to walk into a billiard hall and hear nothing but the sound of the balls hitting each other. In the old days the old timers approached pool like it was some sort of a library. There was no interruptions allowed and everyone whispered let alone not having music busting off in the background. If you ever have the opportunity walk in and unplug the juke and listen to the balls breaking. Now that is pool!
 
by the way, I forgot to mention this, if you unplug the juke start running because some one is going to try and kick your ___ for the antic but boy does this sound cool - hearing multiple tables sing!!!
 
Cat Daddy said:
by the way, I forgot to mention this, if you unplug the juke start running because some one is going to try and kick your ___ for the antic but boy does this sound cool - hearing multiple tables sing!!!
Click to expand...

The clicking sound of pool balls without any other distraction is rather unique.
 
Break Time Billiards

Okay folks, it is up and running. After 4-months of construction. We did a soft open on Nov 2nd. I spent $210K purchasing the 10 acres with the house, remodeled the commercial side for about $130K, added another $105K in notes for all new equipment and then used about $15K for start up funds, it is costing just under $300 a day and the return without any advertising is hitting in at $400 average per day. And this is mostly from the food, the games just went on line today as we were awaiting stupid stickers (tax permits) from the State. There is no booze and no smoking and it is a real nice upscale billiards hall. Check us out: www.breaktimebilliards.us
 
We've been in the biz since 1967. We've had no designers nor any fancy BS. Just good old fashioned hard work and family. (And STRESS) And BTW, Diamonds are the best tables.
 
Design or Adaption

I think most pool rooms have to adapt to their locations. Don't get me wrong you get spotty franchise results in geographic locations like NE and Texas. But for the most part they have to adapt to who lives nearby.

It is conceivable that a person could develop design skills based around equipment, location, and build out. However, I feel that as long as you get good value for your purchases that is only half of the journey. You have to adapt the room to the community. If you have grand plans of a large in house league be prepared to drop the idea all together. Sometimes people would just rather pay you $8 an hour.

I think the important key is to remember that you layout the frame work of the business and then you service the customer. The customers needs are where the profit is. If they play poker, then you play poker and so on , and so forth.

And to close on the my point I will say this. If anyone wanted to open a pool room in say Jacksonville Fl. Odds are everything you thought you would need would be quickly replaced with what you actually need. This places a firm point on a principle that should be minded. Start small when you can! Learn the people and community and then make those large purchases. No one is in race with you to open a pool room. Every pool room I have known that did extremely well started on the business model of expansion. The ones that I have seen go down in flames are the mega-plex well thought out ones. LOL.

You will know you have done well with a pool room if there is no way you would ever dream of selling. I would be weary of anyone who "opens"
pool rooms. I say that because it just sounds like it cost you money. Successful folks take a lot of pride in giving out much advice for FREE. A great one pocket player I know says "Wise People Seek Wise Council" I think that will do. Yes that will do.
 
Let's say for an example that someone with the money to open a hall with 25 tables, along with serious dart leagues.

1. What would your budget be?

2. Who would design the room and how?

3. No bar, just snacks, soft drinks, and maybe a few video games.

4. Where would you open this room?

5. You can consult with other room owners for ideas.

Remember you want to open a new room, design it without prof. help.
 
Fundamentals First

If you have 25 tables you are looking at nearly 9000 sq ft. You will have to have alcohol to make this work. Also this probably means you will have to offer food in mass portions to keep your city council happy with the alcohol situation. This will create a large build out. For example just a regular visit from our health inspector once resulted in $15,000 in repairs! In other words building to code is important. So original build out may cost around $50,000 for a decent kitchen.

When you start talking this amount of tables the space requirement is going to dictate the remaining elements. I assure you that to maintain that size building you will have to sell alcohol and food. I think these are fundamental. A room that has 10-12 tables might could function in the fashion you first stated.

Your budget is a scalable option. For example Gandy Big G's can be purchased for around 800 a piece. On the other hand Diamond 8 ft Pro AM can be picked up for $3750.00 new in the box. Who's playing on these tables? Will they stay rented? Will you need the tax benefits of owning the more expensive tables? You may decide to lease tables with a buy out if you think you will make money your first year. A lease is 100% tax deductible. If you pay 37% in taxes a year that is a great idea to lease/w a buy out. So in closing you can spend $93,000 just for tables or make your first lease payment ($2300) there is a giant difference in start up cash.

I would factor all of the purchases and bring it in with he following details.

Upscale 25 tables (Diamonds) New Equipment, Build Out, Big Screens, Kitchen, Signage, Permits, Fixtures, Utilities,Tiled Bathrooms, Inventories and Etc etc. $350,000 Plus Rent

Mid Grade 25 Tables (Brunswick Used ) Carpet everywhere. Used kitchen equipment, permits, fixtures, Utilities, Vinyl Floor Bathroom, Inventories, couple TVS, etc etc. $175,000 Plus rent

Bargain Basement 25 tables Used Gandy's, Equipment you fix, best Chili Dog in Town format, one tv, Unisex bathroom, and a Business license.
$70,000 Plus Rent.

The thing to realize is the size of the room don't change with none of these formats. For the most part that is. As far as location whatever you do don't miss match. Do not build Upscale room in Ghetto town and don't build bargain basement on park avenue. Neither one of these neighborhoods will support the room because they are mismatched. Also remember college kids are broke. I can not count the number of college town pool rooms I have seen grand opening and grand closing. Those kids just don't do "by the hour pool". Coin tables however work perfectly.

I think in your theory room I would tone it back to around 15 tables do it middle of the road in spot with room for expansion. Kinda makes the escape hatch a little bit bigger but if things go great you can always bust through wall and call Diamond lol. Hope this helps
 
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