Billiard University (BU) playing-ability-exam scores and ratings

Thank you for the input and suggestions. A "playing the ghost" drill, like the JT 10-ball version, does provide a decent measure of offensive skills, assuming you do enough racks to average out all of the variability from rack to rack. I also like the idea of a "Final Exam;" although that's how I see BU Exam II. The first exam is a fundamentals assessment and placement exam, and the second exam assesses important applied pool skills, including run-out skills (see drills S1, S2, S3, and S4 in Exam II). Unlike the playing the ghost drills, Exam II also tests safety, kick, bank, jacked up, and jump skills, which are also important. Maybe the JT ghost drill can count toward "Continuing Education Credits." :grin-square:

Dave,

I think you are missing the gist of the concept of adding a *dynamic* final exam like the Joe Tucker 10 ball ghost drill or the Hopkin's Q test(?) thing vs just having static drill tests.

What's the difference? With static,set drills, you can score quite a bit higher with a small amount of repetition, once you get familiar with the set up shots. In fact, if you take someone's score from the first time trying it, then let them practice for 1 month and re-test, you might get a DRAMATICALLY higher score.

A "dynamic" test like the JT 10 Ball or Hopkins Q test gives you some real life randomness to the ball layouts and patterns/shots. As everyone knows, every shot in a drill can have slight variations due to randomness, that can add a lil more difficulty that you won't get with the same drill set up.

Shooting the same drill over and over, if anything, just makes you the "drill master" of those particular set up shots.

Eric
Eric,

I agree with you concerning the value of running random layouts, but I still think BU Exam II does a decent job of measuring run-out skills (in a consistent, non-random way, and within a reasonable amount of time).

Of course people can get better with practice, but that's the whole point. However, regardless of how much you practice, you still need excellent run-out skills to be able to score well on the line-of-balls run-out drill (S1), the rail-cut-shot run-out drill (S2), and the 9-ball and 8-ball pattern run-out drills (S3 and S4), especially in the Doctorate version of the Exam II. Even if you know ahead of time what might be a good run-out pattern, you still need the skill to be able to execute the plan and have the ability to change the plan (sometimes multiple times) when things don't work out well (... which is likely if you don't have good run-out skills). Also, a player who has excellent run-out skills would also probably do well on all of the other BU exam drills (in both Exam I and Exam II), because all of the skills tested are important to running out among a wide range of random layouts (e.g., sometimes during run-outs you need to stop the ball nearly perfectly, or draw back a controlled distance, or follow forward a controlled amount to a small target area, know which direction the CB will head fairly accurately with different amounts of top or bottom spin, control speed and ball travel distance well on stun shots, play position off one or more rails to a fairly tight target zone, etc., etc., etc.). The BU exams also assess skills that don't come up often or at all in the "playing the ghost" drills (e.g., safety play, kicks, banks, and jumps).

I suggest that everybody who has submitted BU scores also try the 10-ball "playing the ghost" drill so we can see how well a practiced BU score compares to an average "playing the ghost" score. I recommend doing the ghost drill 3 times (10 racks of 10-ball each) and using the middle value (median) of the three 10-rack scores to help deal with the inherent (and sometimes extreme) variability.

I ran the drill four times last night on my 8' table with generous pockets and got scores of 60, 43, 63, and 54. If I throw out the first, counting it as practice, and take the middle value of the last three, that gives me a 54, which rates me as "B+," which is probably close to accurate. Although, my high score (63), would put me at "A+," which is definitely not accurate, and the "43" would put me at "C+," which is honestly insulting. A better test might be to do the ghost drill 10 or many more times, taking the middle (median) value, but not everybody has that much time or patience.

BTW, with the 43, I got very unlucky a few times where the 2-ball or 3-ball was hidden or didn't have a pocket, with no reasonable break-out, combo, carom, or kiss available on the ball-in-hand 1-ball shot. With the 63, I thought I played at an average level but I was fortunate to have a good layout on every rack (except one where I scratched and made 2 balls o the break, with no easy way to break out the spotted cluster). With the 54, I thought I played much better, but I got unlucky a few times (with clusters or blocked pockets with no easy combo). Anyway, it was good practice and I strongly recommend it to others.

For everybody who has posted BU scores, please try 3 or more runs of the 10-ball ghost drill and report your middle score and rating so we can see how it compares to your well-practice BU rating. I will add these scores and ratings to the BU rating list for comparison and correlation purposes (as "Exam III").

Eric, have you tried the exams yet? If so, please post your scores along with your 10-ball ghost "Exam III" score. You seem to be a good player. I will be curious to see what you think after going through the process and making the comparison.

Thanks again for your input and suggestions,
Dave
 
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For everybody who has posted BU scores, please try 3 or more runs of the 10-ball ghost drill and report your middle score and rating so we can see how it compares to your well-practice BU rating. I will add these scores and ratings to the BU rating list for comparison and correlation purposes (as "Exam III").
FYI, I just made some tweaks in the the BU Ratings Comparison Chart to better correlate to the A-D ratings based on what we've seen to far. I'm sure I will refine these more as additional data comes in. Here's the latest AZB list with the new ratings:

List of AZB'ers who have taken the BU playing-ability exams so far (in ranked order):

BU score, Username, BU Rating, 10-ball ghost rating, Video links (if available):

160, Gerry Williams, semi-pro (A++/AAA), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Exam I (part 1, part 2), Exam II
141, 12squared (Dave Gross), adv-3 (A+/AA), no 10-ball ghost score yet, no videos (see AZB post)
141, Neil, adv-3 (A+/AA), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Exam (part 1, part 2), Exam II (part 1, part 2, part 3)
135, dr_dave, adv-2 (A/A-), 54 (B+), Exam I, Exam II
132, Gerry Williams, adv-2 (A/A-), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Table Setup, Exam I, Exam II (part 1, part 2)
132, BRussell, adv-2 (A/A-), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Exam I, Exam II
124, JC, adv-1 (B+/B), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Table Specs, Exam 1, Exam 2
112, RobMan, adv-1 (B+/B), no 10-ball ghost score yet, no videos (see AZB post)
78, iusedtoberich, int-2 (C+), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Table Specs, Exam I, Exam II
77, SeanChamp, int-2 (C+), no 10-ball ghost score yet, no videos (see AZB post)

Here are the details and scores for all official BU graduates.

Again, please post your 10-ball ghost score and rating so I can add it to the list. If you want to post a video, I will add a link to that also.

Catch you later,
Dave
 
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For reference, here are my JT 10 ball drill scores. You can see the last 6 scores are from Sept 2008 to Nov 2008 (I injured my back at the end of that time period and had to stop). This was on a 9' GC3 with 5" pockets and worn Simonis 860. I don't think I'm any better today than I was then.

Dr Dave, please see my attached pictures. The description of the test from JT's book does not match what is on your website. There is a large penalty for scratching, and the scoring is very different. I don't know if JT changed it over the years, or your source was mistaken.

IMG_5193.jpg

IMG_5194.jpg
 
Trial 2 of bachelors exam:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJtMRAq6nT0

I did this trial after practicing the individual components of the test for about 3 or so hours between yesterday and today. The first trial was completely blind, with no practice. I expect to score higher still with the next trial after more practice on the individual components.

View attachment 279404

View attachment 279405
Thank you for posting results again. I look forward to seeing what your can do once you get your Exam I score into the Masters range. Good luck!

Here are the updated results so far:
List of AZB'ers who have taken the BU playing-ability exams so far (in ranked order):

BU score, Username, BU Rating, 10-ball ghost rating, Video links (if available):

160, Gerry Williams, semi-pro (A++/AAA), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Table Setup, Exam I (part 1, part 2), Exam II
141, 12squared (Dave Gross), adv-3 (A+/AA), no 10-ball ghost score yet, no videos (see AZB post)
141, Neil, adv-3 (A+/AA), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Exam (part 1, part 2), Exam II (part 1, part 2, part 3)
135, dr_dave, adv-2 (A/A-), 54 (B+), Exam I, Exam II
132, Gerry Williams, adv-2 (A/A-), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Table Setup, Exam I, Exam II (part 1, part 2)
132, BRussell, adv-2 (A/A-), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Exam I, Exam II
124, JC, adv-1 (B+/B), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Table Specs, Exam 1, Exam 2
112, RobMan, adv-1 (B+/B), no 10-ball ghost score yet, no videos (see AZB post)
87, iusedtoberich, int-2 (C+), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Table Specs, Exam I, Exam II
78, iusedtoberich, int-2 (C+), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Table Specs, Exam I, Exam II
77, SeanChamp, int-2 (C+), no 10-ball ghost score yet, no videos (see AZB post)

Here are the details and scores for all official BU graduates.

We still haven't gotten scores from many of the people who said they would post them. Please keep the scores coming.

Thanks,
Dave
 
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Dr Dave, question on rules that came up during my 2nd trial:

The "3 balls pocketed or driven beyond head string".

1. If a ball is driven beyond the headstring, but then bounces back to the center of the table where it comes to rest, does it count as 1 of the 3?
Yes. As long as the ball gets driven above the head string, it doesn't matter what happens next. Therefore, you need to watch closely (or verify via video later).

2. If a ball is pocketed in the sides or corners by the rack (opposite of head string) does it count as 1 of the 3?
Of course. Any ball pocketed counts.

For the rail drill, if you pocket the OB on a scratch, do you get credit for it? You clarified it on another drill, but not that one. It came up during my 2nd trial.
The score formula at the bottom of 1st page of Exam II states "# of balls pocketed legally," so the ball pocketed on a scratch does not count. The bullet also states "You are not allowed to scratch."

Thank you.
You're welcome. Thank you for pointing out all of these things. If you weren't sure, other people will also probably be confused or uncertain. I will look at the documents and try to improve the wording to make these things more clear.

Regards,
Dave
 
I know I've given you some "crap" regarding some of the scoring, but really these tests are fun to do. I especially like seeing other peoples attempts and how they handled them. When shooting the exact shots as others, you can directly relate to their experiences, since you did it yourself.
 
Here's what I feel drills do for you-
1. If you didn't already know how to make the shot, they will teach you that. If you knew how to make the shot, but weren't consistent in making it, it will make you more consistent in making it.
2. I do not feel that practicing a shot until you master it means you can only make that shot. It does translate to any similar angle shot you will encounter.
3. Any position drill will teach you how to move your cb if you don't already. If you do, it will help make you more consistent.
4. Drills (with some kind of reward, such as scoring) will teach you to start really paying attention to just what you are doing. If you succeed on the shot, what did you just do to succeed, and are you able to duplicate what you just did?
5. They can teach you shots that you have been avoiding, or position routes you never attempted much before.
6. They will give you a real world percentage on what you can and can not do. Almost all will be surprised the first time they attempt drills like these on the areas they didn't do so well on, and the areas they did do well on.
7. Doing them once, gives you a good idea of where you now stand. Practicing them, you will find that in some areas you may go down a ways, other areas you may go up some. In other words, you will test yourself on your consistency.
8. To do well consistently from day to day, you will have to learn to focus all the time. Never taking anything for granted because you did well on it in the past. Each time you focus, you get a little bit better at it, and at the shot or position. That also helps improve your game. Sometimes dramatically in a short period of time.
9. Practicing the drills gives you confidence when they, or something similar, comes up in a game situation. Confidence in play is a huge factor in playing well.
Excellent summary Neil! I agree 100%. :thumbup2:

Also, here's the big problem with breaking and running out to score yourself one point per ball. I'll use me today for an example. I rack up ten ball. I break and run out and don't need ball in hand. Next rack, same thing. Next rack, I take ball in hand, and still have no way at all to break out the 2. Can't even come close to getting to the two because of how the balls lie. So, on that rack I get a whopping one for a score. Next rack basically the same thing. Take ball in hand on the one, but due to it having balls near it, cannot get to the two decently, and have to shoot a tough combo on the two-6 anyways. So, now after 4 racks, I have a whopping 22! (just to clarify, the racks were spread pretty well, in ten ball you almost always have something to deal with. In these two examples, it was early in the rack, so I was screwed for running out).

So, as you see, break and run scoring has it's faults also. It too can vary big time from day to day. More so than the other drills will. The other drills teach actual improvement better than scoring balls or trying to run out. That said, one should also practice running out. And, adding safety play in the running out practice, and kicking and banking.
I've experienced this as well; but with a large number of trials, throwing out the best and worst scores (e.g., by choosing the middle or median value), you can get a representative rating with a random drill (it just takes lots of time and effort and focus, which is a good goal for practice).

Thank you for you insightful post and participation. When you get a chance, please try 3, 5, 10 or more trials of the 10-ball ghost drill and post your middle score.

Thanks,
Dave
 
Dr Dave, slight error on scoring spreadsheet for bachelor's. The max points for S6 should be 3, not 6. Total possible points of 54 seems correct.

Also, I think it would be nice if on the log tab of the spreadsheet it would show the maximum point value for each column. This could be in the same cell as the text description as I've quickly typed in the below screenshot as a rough example. When reviewing the scores, this would help show what areas were strong, and what were weak.

View attachment 279440

View attachment 279441
Thank you again for spotting the error and for your excellent suggestions. Both changes have been made.

Regards,
Dave
 
For reference, here are my JT 10 ball drill scores. You can see the last 6 scores are from Sept 2008 to Nov 2008 (I injured my back at the end of that time period and had to stop). This was on a 9' GC3 with 5" pockets and worn Simonis 860. I don't think I'm any better today than I was then.

Dr Dave, please see my attached pictures. The description of the test from JT's book does not match what is on your website. There is a large penalty for scratching, and the scoring is very different. I don't know if JT changed it over the years, or your source was mistaken.

View attachment 279508

View attachment 279509
Thanks for posting the excerpts from Joe's book. I've added the scratch-on-the-break penalty to the online version. That makes a lot of sense; otherwise, you could really pound the break and not care what happens in an attempt to make more balls and get a better spread.

After throwing out your highest and lowest scores, the median (middle) value is 38. FYI, I've added this to the list at the top of the thread.

Thanks again for your participation and involvement. I appreciate it.

Best regards,
Dave
 
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I know I've given you some "crap" regarding some of the scoring, but really these tests are fun to do.
In a way, I appreciate the "crap" from you and others (e.g., Eric and Spidey). It helps keep me sharp and honest. And the exams and scoring/rating system will be better as a result.

I especially like seeing other peoples attempts and how they handled them.
Me too.

I hope many others will participate and post scores and not feel embarassed if their score is lower than they expected or hoped.

When shooting the exact shots as others, you can directly relate to their experiences, since you did it yourself.
Agreed. That's part of the fun.

Catch you later,
Dave
 
... how do we compare apples to apples. the 9B ghost is nothing on a BB and difficult on a 4" GC for me. and lots of guys right around my speed.

equipment is a factor that should be considered, some how ???:confused::confused
Excellent point. We handle this in the BU system two ways:
- A Doctorate diploma cannot be earned unless both exams are taken on a 9' or larger table.
- Table information and pocket geometry are reported with the BU score so there is "context" to go along with the score (see the official list of graduates to see how the scores are reported).
Another way to handle this is to require that the BU Exams be taken on a 9' table with a pocket size 4 1/2" or less and and a shelf depth 1 1/2" or more, but I don't think people would like this very much because it is too constraining for many people. Also, there are many other factors that go into how difficult a table plays (the angles of the pocket walls, the properties of the cloth and rubber on the pocket facings/walls and points, the speed and cleanliness of the cloth, the level of humidity, etc.). I think the approach we have taken is the only reasonable approach. Although, I am open to other ideas.

Thanks again for your input,
Dave
 
Eric, have you tried the exams yet? If so, please post your scores along with your 10-ball ghost "Exam III" score. You seem to be a good player. I will be curious to see what you think after going through the process and making the comparison.

Thanks again for your input and suggestions,
Dave

I haven't tried them fully, yet. I have dabbled with a couple of the shots, so far. This is where i came up with my conclusion that scores can improve drastically and dramatically, if you practiced your drills repeatedly.

Case in point, the "wagon wheel" drill, where you use different tips of english to hit the OB gets much easier once you know the correct spin and stroke "feel", to make the hit.

I feel that once i try it, that i can almost double my very first try/score if i practiced these exact drills for 3 months straight.

It's almost like cheating, once you have done them 100 times.

I'll have to give it a shot.

*Edit-BTW, being a B to B+ might be a realistic level that you are at, Dave. Your ball pocketing and position play has imporved a bunch, from 4-7 years ago. Your safety play is kinda weak and your banking is very weak. Without those skills, you would prolly be more like a low B+ or high B. Still, nice improvement.


Eric
 
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Eric, have you tried the exams yet? If so, please post your scores along with your 10-ball ghost "Exam III" score. You seem to be a good player. I will be curious to see what you think after going through the process and making the comparison.
I haven't tried them fully, yet. I have dabbled with a couple of the shots, so far.
I look forward to seeing your results (the BU Exams and the ghost "Final Exam").

This is where i came up with my conclusion that scores can improve drastically and dramatically, if you practiced your drills repeatedly.

Case in point, the "wagon wheel" drill, where you use different tips of english to hit the OB gets much easier once you know the correct spin and stroke "feel", to make the hit.
It's one thing to know the correct amount of spin and best ball-in-hand position (that's actually easy with the 30-degree rule and trisect system), but it's another thing entirely to get the exact hit you want with the right speed for the cut angle you choose, and do so consistently. I'll be extremely impressed if, through practice, you can be close to perfect with this drill on a consistent basis. I would love to see that video.

*Edit-BTW, being a B to B+ might be a realistic level that you are at, Dave. Your ball pocketing and position play has improved a bunch, from 4-7 years ago ... nice improvement.
Thanks. With all of this practice lately, with the BU Exams and "playing the ghost" drills, I feel like I'm getting better already. I certainly think my goal of reaching the BU Doctorate level within a year or so is realistic.

Catch you later,
Dave
 
"*Edit-BTW, being a B to B+ might be a realistic level that you are at, Dave. Your ball pocketing and position play has imporved a bunch, from 4-7 years ago. Your safety play is kinda weak and your banking is very weak. Without those skills, you would prolly be more like a low B+ or high B. Still, nice improvement."




Eric >was my actual quote
 
BTW, being a B to B+ might be a realistic level that you are at, Dave. Your ball pocketing and position play has imporved a bunch, from 4-7 years ago. Your safety play is kinda weak and your banking is very weak. Without those skills, you would prolly be more like a low B+ or high B. Still, nice improvement.
I thought I responded to this earlier in the thread. I agreed with you that my safeties and banks on that video sucked ... probably as bad as I ever do on those drills. That's part of the challenge of the BU exams ... to stay focused and do well on every challenge during every attempt, one drill or run-out after another, which isn't easy for us mere mortals. I certainly plan on practicing the safeties and banks more so I do better next time. I know you think this is cheating, but I think practicing the shots that sometimes give us trouble is well worth the practice, even if the shots we practice are a consistent set and not constantly changing.

Honestly, I didn't respond to all of your comments because this thread is not about me and my ability, which certainly has lots of room for improvement. It's about the exams and people sharing their results and commenting on how well the rating matches their perceived level of ability. I hope you plan to participate.

Again, in case I wasn't clear enough the last two times, I totally agree with you that I am not an "A" player on a 9' table with tight pockets (where I'm probably a B at best). But again, this isn't the purpose for this thread.

BTW, I do plan to further revise the A-D interpretations listed in my BU Rating Comparison Chart if the data suggests revision is appropriate. Please help contribute to the data.

Catch you later,
Dave
 
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Since the thread has gotten a little off track, I thought I'd post this again, hoping people will participate:

I suggest that everybody who has submitted BU scores also try the 10-ball "playing the ghost" drill so we can see how well a practiced BU score compares to an average "playing the ghost" score. I recommend doing the ghost drill 3 or more times (10 racks of 10-ball each) and using the middle (median) value of the 10-rack scores to help deal with the inherent (and sometimes extreme) variability. I will add these scores and ratings to the BU rating list for comparison and correlation purposes.

Here's the current data for all AZB participants to date:

List of AZB'ers who have taken the BU playing-ability exams so far (in ranked order):

BU score, Username, BU Rating, 10-ball ghost rating, Video links (if available):

160, Gerry Williams, semi-pro (A++/AAA), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Table Setup, Exam I (part 1, part 2), Exam II
141, 12squared (Dave Gross), adv-3 (A+/AA), no 10-ball ghost score yet, no videos (see AZB post)
141, Neil, adv-3 (A+/AA), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Exam (part 1, part 2), Exam II (part 1, part 2, part 3)
135, dr_dave, adv-2 (A/A-), 54 (B+), Exam I, Exam II
132, Gerry Williams, adv-2 (A/A-), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Table Setup, Exam I, Exam II (part 1, part 2)
132, BRussell, adv-2 (A/A-), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Exam I, Exam II
124, JC, adv-1 (B+/B), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Table Specs, Exam 1, Exam 2
112, RobMan, adv-1 (B+/B), no 10-ball ghost score yet, no videos (see AZB post)
87, iusedtoberich, int-2 (C+), no 10-ball ghost score yet, Table Specs, Exam I, Exam II
78, iusedtoberich, int-2 (C+), 38 (C), Table Specs, Exam I, Exam II
77, SeanChamp, int-2 (C+), 38 (C), no videos (see AZB post)

Here are the details and scores for all official BU graduates.

Thanks again for your participation,
Dave
 
Since the thread has gotten a little off track, I thought I'd post this again, hoping people will participate:

I suggest that everybody who has submitted BU scores also try the 10-ball "playing the ghost" drill so we can see how well a practiced BU score compares to an average "playing the ghost" score. I recommend doing the ghost drill 3 or more times (10 racks of 10-ball each) and using the middle (median) value of the 10-rack scores to help deal with the inherent (and sometimes extreme) variability. I will add these scores and ratings to the BU rating list for comparison and correlation purposes.



Thanks again for your participation,
Dave

I'm going to try and do it this week yet, Dave.
 
I'm going to try and do it this week yet, Dave.
Thanks Neil. I know this sort of thing takes time. Hopefully, people can find time this weekend if they're not able to get to it during the week.

Catch you later,
Dave
 
Okay Dr. Dave - here is a little more info for you, I have tracked many many racks of playing the nine ball (10 point as listed on your site) and tracked the scores. Earlier this year I switched to playing the 10 ball drill - I only have 6x10 rack scores.

9 bill drill - last 10 scores (ten racks each) - average 67. Your range of a B is 63-78 so I am pretty solidly in the B- category here.

10 ball drill - 6 scores (ten racks each) - average 46. This is the bottom of the B rating. As Neal pointed out, I am amazed how many times I had 1's or 2's due to very difficult or unplayable clusters early.

The 10 ball is so much harder in my view. For perspective: in the last 60 racks of 9 ball, I had 16 run outs. I only had 2 in the the same racks of 10 ball -- ouch!

Lastly, I retook the Masters Exam and increased from 53 to 58. A little experience with the drills does help!

Hope this data helps you in correlating skill levels.

Rob
 
i still want to know how to account for different equipment,


the table i play on has 3.98" pockets at the points and 3.80" at the shelf, its a 9' table.


I'm sure I could score much higher on a barbox or a B-Wick home style table like my biz partner has with no shelf and 5" pockets,

I have mentioned this a few times and get ignored, i aint trying to cause a problem-i'm just asking a simple question. there has to be a coefficient built into the scoring for table conditions-I would think or a multiple. 7' and 9' tables are 2 very different animals. I'm sure there is a 30% difference in scoring between the 2 for any given player.

its a great program, well thought out and presented. i admire the work you have put into it, but it's a error to just score all equipment the same, everyone here knows that that can run 5 balls in a row.

best regards

eric:)
 
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