"Blending" a Ferrule....hummm

Cuedog

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When installing a replacement ferrule, there are times when I can still feel a very slight "lip" after cutting down and sanding the ferrule. Most times, I am able to get it blended perfectly. Fortunately, most times, is just not good enough for me. I want to blend the ferrule to perfection, EVERYTIME.

What method do you use to blend the ferrule to the shaft. Thanks in advance for your help.

Gene
 
This is only easy if the shaft is perfectly round. Sometimes people sand their shafts by hand (or bought a crappy shaft) and there will be low/high spots in the shaft. Dial indicate the shaft before you put the ferrule on, and you should be able to get it very close. You can then make a choice whether to take down the ferrule's high spots, or the shaft's to make them match.
 
Sheldon said:
This is only easy if the shaft is perfectly round. Sometimes people sand their shafts by hand (or bought a crappy shaft) and there will be low/high spots in the shaft. Dial indicate the shaft before you put the ferrule on, and you should be able to get it very close. You can then make a choice whether to take down the ferrule's high spots, or the shaft's to make them match.

When you use the dial indicator, put it on the shaft, just behind the ferrule. You are trying to match the shaft, not the ferrule. If the shaft is not chucked up true in, the headstock, you'll have a lip on one side. If you do have a round shaft, by using shims, you can get it withing .001 on the indicator. ...JER
 
After rereading your post, I think you may be too agressive with your sanding. Remember that the shaft wood is softer, than the ferrule material. If you continue to have problems, you can wrap a couple of layers of masking tape around the shaft, just behinh the ferrule & sand the ferrule, without taking the wood with it...JER
 
In my experience, the more sanding done to the ferrule, the more problems one is likely to have. If your tool is sharpened well, you can take the final few passes on the ferrule and be exactly flush wiht hte shaft. Then you can lightly sand starting with 320 or 400 paper up until your final grit.

As far as holding a shaft concentric with the lathe, I have tried various methods in search for a fast and accurate solution: 3 jaw chucks, 3 jaw chucks with a piece of leather or rubber surrounding the shaft wood (to allow tapping the shaft for adjustment) an ER collapsable collet system, and finally a 4 jaw chuck. I have settled on the 4 jaw chuck. Althouth it takes the longest amount of time to set up, I can easily get the shaft spinning true within .001 TIR (provided the shaft is round to begin with). I find getting the shaft to spin this true makes the blending part of the job go very well.
 
Cuedog said:
When installing a replacement ferrule, there are times when I can still feel a very slight "lip" after cutting down and sanding the ferrule. Most times, I am able to get it blended perfectly. Fortunately, most times, is just not good enough for me. I want to blend the ferrule to perfection, EVERYTIME.

What method do you use to blend the ferrule to the shaft. Thanks in advance for your help.

Gene

As in previous replies, the shaft has to be true as possible to start with.... I suggest cutting it down to a few thousandths, put on the tip then carefully sand and try to stay away from overheating the ferrule which will cause the glue to soften up.
 
One trick I use, is make sure you have some type of flat solid backing board behind your sandpaper when you are sanding the ferrule, like a wood ruler or a square piece of metal.

The wood on the shaft is usually much easier to sand than the ferrule itself, so if you are holding the sandpaper in your fingers, you are essentially 'pinching' the shaft. What will then happen is you will take off more shaft than ferrule material and really make a mess of things.

Some more tricks I have, always chuck as close to the ferrule as possible, make sure your cutting tip on your toolpost is super sharp, make very small cuts to keep from "flexing" the shaft. I also use cigarette rolling papers as wedges when I am trying to zero out my dial indicator.

I still think that putting on a replacement ferrule, and doing a good job of it, is one of the trickier things there is in cue repair.

Jeff
 
Great Stuff

Just seek and you will find. Thanks for all the help so far.

It seems that after doing hundreds of ferrules, my technique is pretty sound. I guess what I didn't think of when it comes to the ones that don't turn out perfect, is that the shaft may be the problem and not me.

Couple of questions though:

Jerry, are the shims you speak of, simular to the cigarette rolling papers that BeornLS uses?

[I]"3 jaw chucks with a piece of leather or rubber surrounding the shaft wood (to allow tapping the shaft for adjustment) an ER collapsable collet system,"[/I]
iusedtoberich...Can you explain this better? How do you adjust it so that it rolls true enough to work on with the rubber or leather?

hadjcues, Why do you cut the ferrule down some prior to putting the tip on?

Thanks again guys!

Gene
 
Helpful

BeornLS said:
I also use cigarette rolling papers as wedges when I am trying to zero out my dial indicator.

I still think that putting on a replacement ferrule, and doing a good job of it, is one of the trickier things there is in cue repair.

Jeff
Hey Jeff, Thanks for the response. The rolling papers seems to be a great tip for minute adjustments.

I completely agree with replacement ferrules being a bit tricky at times.

Gene
 
Cuedog said:
Just seek and you will find. Thanks for all the help so far.

It seems that after doing hundreds of ferrules, my technique is pretty sound. I guess what I didn't think of when it comes to the ones that don't turn out perfect, is that the shaft may be the problem and not me.

Couple of questions though:

Jerry, are the shims you speak of, simular to the cigarette rolling papers that BeornLS uses?

[I]"3 jaw chucks with a piece of leather or rubber surrounding the shaft wood (to allow tapping the shaft for adjustment) an ER collapsable collet system,"[/I]
iusedtoberich...Can you explain this better? How do you adjust it so that it rolls true enough to work on with the rubber or leather?

hadjcues, Why do you cut the ferrule down some prior to putting the tip on?

Thanks again guys!

Gene


I use metal shims of .002", .005" & .010". If I need a smaller adjustment, I use plain old tablet paper...JER
 
Cuedog:

Here is a link to a page showing how to use a 4 jaw chuck. It is tricky at first, and it might take 10 minutes to center work the first time. But with practice, you should be able to center work better than .001 TIR in 2 to 3 minutes or so.

Here is a short video of a 4 jaw chuck being used. It doesn't show the adjustment process, only the result. But it gives you some idea...

Once you understand the concept of a 4 jaw chuck, the leather/rubber method works in a similar way. I had the best success with a piece of rubber about 3/16 inch thick. You wrap it around the shaft (in place of the collets we use to hold shafts) and place it in a normal 3 jaw chuck. I like to leave about 1/4 inch of the rubber sticking out of the chuck for a later step. You tighten the chuck, and indicate the shaft. You find the high spot on the shaft than GENTLY tap the shaft down. What you are doing is compressing the rubber/leather under the shaft so the shaft sits lower. You then check for the high spot again and repeat the process. When you tap down, you tap on top of the leather/rubber that is sticking out of the jaws, so you don't ding the shaft. There is another variation on this where you actually tap the top of the high jaw itself, instead of directly on the shaft. I think it was Macguy, but I'm not 100% sure, that wrote of this method a year ago or so. I never had success with that method, but he did.

The biggest problem I had with this tapping method is sometimes I just couldn't get a shaft to run true (that I knew was round). The rubber would do funny things at times, and just wouldn't allow me to center the work.

With the 4 jaw chuck, I can get the shaft centered every time. There is also an "adjust-tru" chuck that works like both a 3 jaw and a 4 jaw chuck. But they are quite a bit more expensive and the smallest size I have found is 4 inch in diameter, with 6 inches in diameter being the most common.

Finally, I know several people on here have stated they have had good centering success with using a high quality 3 jaw chuck. They set the chuck up once, and then every shaft that goes in is perfectly (within reason) centered. That has not been my experience at all. Can anyone with great success in this regard share their technique? Lets say .002 TIR or better with no adjustment needed.
 
> On replacement ferrules,one thing I like to do is lightly center drill the glue relief hole,and use a very long pointed live center up there to cut down on tool push or deflection. On uncapped ferrules like Meucci and import stuff,I install the tip and leave a little leather on the sides,and use my small nosed Hightower concave live center to hold it. After I get the ferrule/wood seam as close as I can,I finish the tip. Sanding with the paper wrapped around a small piece of flat steel stock helps too. A really good test indicator is an almost must-have. For the money,the Fowler X-test is great,but mine never gets used because I was given a matched set of Interapid,and also have my grandfather's old Starrett Last Word. Tommy D.
 
Tommy-D said:
> On replacement ferrules,one thing I like to do is lightly center drill the glue relief hole,and use a very long pointed live center up there to cut down on tool push or deflection. On uncapped ferrules like Meucci and import stuff,I install the tip and leave a little leather on the sides,and use my small nosed Hightower concave live center to hold it. After I get the ferrule/wood seam as close as I can,I finish the tip. Sanding with the paper wrapped around a small piece of flat steel stock helps too. A really good test indicator is an almost must-have. For the money,the Fowler X-test is great,but mine never gets used because I was given a matched set of Interapid,and also have my grandfather's old Starrett Last Word. Tommy D.

that is exactly what I do aswell...I'm a firm believer that turning between centers is the best bet against off-concentricity....
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This is one of the trickiest parts of shaft work IMO. different materials act in different ways. As hadj mentioned the expansion and contraction of materials can cause things to move after you have them perfect. You can do a shaft with a perfect seam , and within hours you might still feel a place Anyway. how I go about It sometimes depends on the material and My past experience with It. Sometimes It's as simple as taking longer, and letting the material cool from the friction, but that can be tough when finishing off due to any burmishing procedures. They only create more problems due to the heat buildup. sometimes you get the opposite effect, and the seam will feel off, but once It cools then It's perfect. Over time you get to know the different materials Your working with, and develope little tricks to make things easier the first time. It's easy to dig yourself a hole when learning, so you have to be carefull or could end up in a real mess trying to fix It. but IMO hands on is the best teacher in this area. Possible what I do May not work well in another area with a different climate & humidity level.

indicating and shimming can also help, as well as centering drilling for a live center as It's helps cut down on the pushoff from your cutting tool. Just make sure as mentioned that the shaft part is indicated, because sometimes a center hole that's not perfect can throw that off, and defeat half of the purpose for doing it. As mentioned Keeping the ferrule closer to the headstock can help with some issues also, and may be easier to indicate. You can even undercut the ferrule slightly, and sand the wood to the ferule, but may loose more diameter that way depending on equipment or how close you can cut it.

As Sheldon mentioned the most damage in this area is usually caused from excessive customer sanding or those green scrubby pads. some can be very hard to work with, and as he mentioned many times they are also out of round making the indicating alittle harder, and the repair guy having to resort to stuff He'd probably rather not have to get into.

Besides expasion issues, The best way to explain why you have some that blend easier and others that are a pain, might be because the wood and most ferrule materials sand at a different rate, and the wood most times sands away alot faster making that seam even worse the more you try to blend It, as where some materials sand alittle closer to the same rate as the wood, but keep this in mind, some shaftwoods sand away faster then other shaftswoods LOL. Brings up the forest theory, "It's like a box of chocolates".

I've been through many methods of sanding, some decent and other just made things worse. The board sanding I've done before, It helps to keep you from pinching with your fingers as mentioned, and making the area in ? even worse, but I only use It on rare ocassion now. The method of sanding I use is simular to the way you sand the finish on the cue, and I try to never put Myself in a position where I need anything under 400 grit. I'm all about taking off as little as possible to get the job done, as I'm sure most others are.

I hesitate to mention this because I don't avocate it, some may frown on It, and others may try it only to have poor results and more headaches to contend with, but sometimes good ol CA can help in this area also. I don't mean for filling purposes, but just to seal the seam and slow down the sanding rate of the shaft wood some. It is very hard to apply & do perfectly, and took me quite some time to perfect, so I don't recomend it, and in fact only do so Myself when it seems all else will fail. You can make a real mess of things, and there are many other issues that can be brought on by it. Not something you want to experiement on a customer cue with. Also If not done corectly or filling with it too much, can make It noticable when the shaft is polished. I have customers that like different types of finishes, and I do have some that like more of the chalky, sanded, smooth type finish, so are more concerned with keeping what ever diameter they can. With that type finish the CA blends well and helps keep some diameter to their shaft, so they are very happy with the results even as a filler. Now when you are doing a super burnished shaft you need to be on the money the first time, and try to avoid it all together, but It is possible to apply and sand just through it enough so It does'nt stand out or cause a difference in feel where you used It.
Keep in mind this is not what I consider regular practice, but I do have customers that will just sand their shafts down to nothing, so these are the ones I am refering to. If you don't result to giving them something to sand on there, and just cut the ferrule down each time, before long they will be shooting with a pencil. It simply buys them time before they have to replace the shaft, and they are fully aware of why I do this for them.

Assuming that Your centering when cutting is not the issue, but you are moreless striving to have a perfect finished seam, I would add this, Try to think of sanding as if your finishing a cue & that may help some. The lathe does'nt always have to be spinning when you do it, the art of it is in the hands, mind, and how they comunicate & work together. I know that sounds corny, but what I'm saying is an artist can give you the tools, and can even explain the strokes to you, but he still can't make you paint like him. somethings will just come to you in time, and as long as your trying to strive for perfection and are persistent, then you will be seeing the results You desire. I'm sure you've had time to figure out that part out already, and are probably like me and just want that area perfect everytime. Some can still be a pain no matter how many tricks I learn. The main thing I've learned is not to cause yourself anymore work then possible, because in the end you will be less satisfied with the results anyway. I have pretty good luck with them now, but every once in a while I get one that has me pulling My grey hair & Ca out:D

Good Luck, Greg
 
great post...
The method of sanding I use is simular to the way you sand the finish on the cue, and I try to never put Myself in a position where I need anything under 400 grit. I'm all about taking off as little as possible to get the job done, as I'm sure most others are.
That's what I like to see... cut to within just a few thousandths, and you have very little to lose or mis-shape by sanding.
 
Cuedog said:
hadjcues, Why do you cut the ferrule down some prior to putting the tip on?

Thanks again guys!

Gene

What I mean is, I don't blend in the ferrule before I put the tip on... saves time for me... so I could have the ferrule and tip flush to the shaft in just one procedure... so I leave the ferrule a few thousandths oversize, install the tip before finalizing and blending everything .
 
hadjcues said:
What I mean is, I don't blend in the ferrule before I put the tip on... saves time for me... so I could have the ferrule and tip flush to the shaft in just one procedure... so I leave the ferrule a few thousandths oversize, install the tip before finalizing and blending everything .

Same here. It helps to preventing bullett nosing the ferrule. Anytime you sand the ferrule, without a tip on it, you round over the leading edge of the ferrule.

Dick
 
confused

Tommy-D said:
> On replacement ferrules,one thing I like to do is lightly center drill the glue relief hole,and use a very long pointed live center up there to cut down on tool push or deflection. On uncapped ferrules like Meucci and import stuff,I install the tip and leave a little leather on the sides,and use my small nosed Hightower concave live center to hold it. After I get the ferrule/wood seam as close as I can,I finish the tip. Sanding with the paper wrapped around a small piece of flat steel stock helps too. A really good test indicator is an almost must-have. For the money,the Fowler X-test is great,but mine never gets used because I was given a matched set of Interapid,and also have my grandfather's old Starrett Last Word. Tommy D.
With the uncapped ferrules, are you saying that you cut from left to right? Or, is the small nose clc small enough that it is smaller than the final diameter of the ferrule thereby allowing you to cut freely?
 
Clearification

hadjcues said:
What I mean is, I don't blend in the ferrule before I put the tip on... saves time for me... so I could have the ferrule and tip flush to the shaft in just one procedure... so I leave the ferrule a few thousandths oversize, install the tip before finalizing and blending everything .
I fully understand what you mean, and I agree with keeping to one procedure.

What I don't understand is why you cut the ferrule down a few thousandths before installing the tip. My guess is that you feel you can sight up the tip centering process better with a smaller ferrule diameter.

I ask this because I almost always place the tip on right after I glue and screw the ferrule on. Just curious. Thanks for your input.
 
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A question and comments

Cue Crazy said:
This is one of the trickiest parts of shaft work IMO.

Cuedog: Agreed

You can even undercut the ferrule slightly, and sand the wood to the ferule, but may loose more diameter that way depending on equipment or how close you can cut it.

Cuedog: Not sure about doing it this way unless you mean undercut the ferrule only a thousandths or so??

I have pretty good luck with them now, but every once in a while I get one that has me pulling My grey hair & Ca out:D

Cuedog: Funny final comment. :D Thanks for taking the time Greg.

Good Luck, Greg
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