Bob Knight & Position Play

D

DrCue'sProtege

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Silver Member
this has been debated on this forum before. there is even a current thread from MrPool06 regarding position play. i am hopeful some instructors like Scott Lee, Blackjack, and Pooltchr will chime in here.

when Bob Knight was coaching basketball at Indiana University he made the comment all the time that he wanted to make their practices tougher than their games. likewise, therefore, it seems logical to me that your pool practice should be tougher than what you would expect during actual play.

in other words, and some have disagreed with me on this before, when you practice position play you need to practice it from the standpoint i have to land the cue ball on a dime. or as Williebetmore said, he at times will practice landing the cue ball on a credit card.

for example, practice this shot below trying to get position on the 2-Ball in that very short landing zone between the 7 & 9-Ball. as opposed to just getting position somewhere. its very tough, but then again, as Bob Knight used to say, practice needs to be harder than actual competition.

i had an instructor/pro player tell me one time its one step at a time. first, practice landing the cue ball in a zone. then once proficient at that, practice landing it on a dime.

thoughts?

DCP

p.s. serious replies only please

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I don't think the board can take it if you make your practices harder. The post count would go up,

why didn't I get out from here
why didn't the cue ball end up here
how should I have played that.


Please don't do it DCP, consider the holiday season and give us all a present.
 
First of all, nice break. Secondly, I would have played it differently, high outside and try to pocket the two in the other corner pocket, leaves a greater margin of error than your shot which could easily leave you snookered.

But, I'm just a ball banger.
 
on a dime?

Wouldn't the CB just hit the dime and roll away? Sorry I couldn't resist.

There are times when being that accurate are necessary, but in most cases just playing to a zone is ok. Therefore, making your practice difficult would make landing in a zone that much easier.

It seems to me that playing the correct position is much better then playing the wrong position precisely.

But what do I know. lol

Steve
 

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Don't confuse difficulty with stupidity. Bob Knight would challenge his players mentally and physically. He would much rather they set up for an easy lay up instead of taking a more difficult jumper from somewhere that is low percentage. Capeche?
 
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One thing we all agree on is that great position play requires both a) the ability to produce the selected cue ball path off the object ball, and b) the ability to produce the right cue ball speed off that angle.

Should you practice both at once or just one at a time? Tough to say. Whether you practice both at once or one at a time, you are setting yourself up for success. Many years ago, Jose Parica commented to me that "most players don't practice their speed control nearly enough". I happen to agree.
 
I agree that practice should be challenging, but not so difficult that it is unlikely that you can successfully accomplish the task. It is also important to know your limitations (margin of error).

Well designed progressive practice drills can provide both. They are great for improving skills and once you find the point where you're 50% successful, you will know what your chances are for success when shooting a given shot.

While practicing position on a dime provides a clear goal, whether you land on the dime or not should not be the measure of success. If it is, it will only lead to frustration. Instead, you should use this type of drill to determine you margin of error. You can then practice to reduce the margin of error.

Practice should be structured and goal oriented. Goals should be Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, and Timely (SMART). For example, "My goal is to develop the skills to stop the cue ball within the width of a ball in 1 month." You need to also identify what might keep you from attaining your goal. Do you know what must happen to cause the cue ball to stop? Are you mechanics accurate and consistent enough? Is your speed control accurate and consistent enough? If an answer is no, then you have to work on that piece of the puzzle in order to reach your goal.
 
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8ballEinstein said:
Of course this is the best shot. DCP was simply setting up a practice shot to test accuracy.
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Amen to that Einstein. those that are talking about playing the 2-Ball in the other corner pocket are simply missing the point, and defeating the purpose of this drill.

i was hoping the more knowledgeable posters on here would realize that, and would offer thoughts on trying to get that dime/credit card accuracy at Point A.

DCP
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
Amen to that Einstein. those that are talking about playing the 2-Ball in the other corner pocket are simply missing the point, and defeating the purpose of this drill.

i was hoping the more knowledgeable posters on here would realize that, and would offer thoughts on trying to get that dime/credit card accuracy at Point A.

DCP
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:rolleyes:
and my point is that you are practicing the WRONG position pattern - and you will play the way that you practice. Back on ignore - good luck.
 
A while back, I started choosing the more difficult path when I practiced. Usually there is two ways to get to the same spot. I found that practicing the hard way worked wonders on my 9 ball game... As you know, run out 9 ball requires you to be able to get the CB to any spot on the table from anywhere... If you just stick to the safest shots, you will never be a rack runner...

I guess it just forced me to practice paths I was weak at... But it worked for me...



As far as dime position, that is to high of a goal. Nobody is that good and nobody will ever be... Sure, there are shots where you can do it but I doubt there has ever been a rack run where the CB landed on a dime for every shot /shrug

I'd shoot for areas to land in with emphasis on taking advantage of margin of error. Example, hit the extra rail to help control speed or do not cross the line but instead, roll away from it or slowly into it.

Stopping on a dime would be nice but the real goal is to stay in line. As long as you are in line, and you are a good shot maker, you can runout from anywhere on the table...
 
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DCP, Mike, Travis,

To expound on your theory that you should make your practice harder than your actual game situtation.

My advice to you is this......

Put the 7 and the 9 closer together so that the cue ball just won't fit in between them. Then shoot the 1 ball like you describe and get position behind them. Practice jumping over them and pocket the 2 ball.

Russ....
 

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This is why BlackJack is right, you never want to be in the narrow part of any zone, if you visualize the zone for the shot at the begining of this thread, for the money Im with BlackJack..


SPINDOKTOR
 
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SPINDOKTOR said:
This is why BlackJack is right, you never want to be in the narrow part of any zone, if you visualize the zone for the shot at the begining of this thread, for the money Im with BlackJack..

SPINDOKTOR
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but you need to practice as if you have to get into those narrow dime/credit card type zones. you people are talking as if landing the cue ball within about a foot or so of the landing zone is acceptable. granted, at times it is. but, once again, it seems absolutely logical to me that you want to practice putting the cue ball on the EXACT spot - not just somewhere near that spot.

DCP
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
but you need to practice as if you have to get into those narrow dime/credit card type zones. you people are talking as if landing the cue ball within about a foot or so of the landing zone is acceptable. granted, at times it is. but, once again, it seems absolutely logical to me that you want to practice putting the cue ball on the EXACT spot - not just somewhere near that spot.

DCP
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DCP, Exercises and the ability to read the table should be your personal goals right now. trying to pin point on a dime is good, but do yourself a favor and realize the shot Zones and practice this first. you will likely run more racks with zones than narrow pin point position shots, your setting yourself up for failer. imho.. Do whatever you want, make the game as hard as you want, you dont have to take my advice or anyone elses.. its up to you ultimately, you can trust that I will not send you in the wrong direction.. I wouldnt do that.

If I had to elvaute your game from just what Ive read on here, and im going to be truthful, I think if you get just a hair out of position you get tense. this leads to choking and missed shots. At times it is the smartest of moves to take a longer shot, than to play pin point position. with time as you get better so does your position, and in a sense the game then becomes easier and you start running out from everywhere. The ability to pocket the tougher shots is still a must, and imho needs to be the main focous of a player . I think you'll find by using a wider margin for error on positional shots your game will indeed go up. WHY? you'll have more oportunites to make a ball.. make sense?


SPINDOKTOR
 
along these lines, one of the things Diana Minor had me work on regarding position play was this concept of landing in the "Zone" and "Getting on the right side of the object ball" within that zone.

she taped off the table in eight (8) sections as per the diagram below. object balls 1 through 8 represent those eight landing zones. and she told me to work on landing the cue ball within that zone, and not to worry too much about pin point accuracy. i believe she felt that, for the most part, if you land within the zone you will have a shot as well as a way to get position on the next ball.

i've taped the table off like this before and practiced shots and racks, and getting position. this helps, but i also believe to play top notch 9-Ball you need to make those zones smaller.

DCP

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DrCue'sProtege said:
you people are talking as if landing the cue ball within about a foot or so of the landing zone is acceptable. granted, at times it is. but, once again, it seems absolutely logical to me that you want to practice putting the cue ball on the EXACT spot - not just somewhere near that spot.
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Nope, you missed it again. The guys here have given you a CORRECT shot to play. Just choosing the correct shot to play is already half job done. Correct thinking is also a part of position play. It took me a few years to understand that.

Yes, sometimes position zones are extremely narrow. Yes, you can setup specific drills and try and go for them. You can try 15ball rotation too.

But in an actual game, not even Efren will go for position routes where there's too much risk of getting into trouble...i.e. snookering yourself, running into other balls, scratching...etc. There has to be some kind of insurrance policy with every shot you play.

Nobody can put the cueball exactly on a specific spot with any regularity. All of the pro's play smart position zones with insurrance policy.
 
predator said:
Nope, you missed it again. The guys here have given you a CORRECT shot to play. Just choosing the correct shot to play is already half job done. Correct thinking is also a part of position play. It took me a few years to understand that.

Yes, sometimes position zones are extremely narrow. Yes, you can setup specific drills and try and go for them. You can try 15ball rotation too.

But in an actual game, not even Efren will go for position routes where there's too much risk of getting into trouble...i.e. snookering yourself, running into other balls, scratching...etc. There has to be some kind of insurrance policy with every shot you play.

Nobody can put the cueball exactly on a specific spot with any regularity. All of the pro's play smart position zones with insurrance policy.
Click to expand...

i think everybody else is missing the point. on any shot - i repeat - on ANY SHOT you have to put the cue ball somewhere. and if its the ABSOLUTE CORRECT shot to play you still want to be accurate with the cue ball!

so, therefore, you should practice putting the cue ball on a dime/credit card when you shoot that ABSOLUTE BEST/CORRECT shot - not just landing it somewhere near it.

as you say, sometimes the Best shot is the Only shot, and the landing zone might be narrow. thats why you need to practice pin point cue ball control.

yes, knowing what shot is the BEST shot is vitally important. but you need to practice pin point cue ball control on those shots also. i cant make it any more plain and simple than that.

DCP
 
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