Break Cue Weight Theory

gunzby

gunzby

My light saber is LD
Silver Member
I was thinking about the back and forth of break cue weights and have come up with a theory of my own.

The general ideas about the weight of your break cue have been:

-Heavier weight = more power transferred to CB = higher break speed
-Lighter weight = more cue speed = higher break speed

When I thought about this I took speed into consideration. More speed generally equals less control in all aspects of life whether it be driving, running or breaking a rack.

The most important two things in breaking a rack is first of course to make a ball and a close second to keep control of the CB so you have a shot. Now if you want that control you are going to break at say 75%. Wouldn't going with the heavier cue equal more transfer of power to the rack and the control to go with it?
 
Oh yea my playing cue is 18oz and my break cue is 20oz. I've never broken with anything heavier than that and I just don't feel like going with something lighter is the way to go.
 
gunzby said:
I was thinking about the back and forth of break cue weights and have come up with a theory of my own.

The general ideas about the weight of your break cue have been:

-Heavier weight = more power transferred to CB = higher break speed
-Lighter weight = more cue speed = higher break speed

When I thought about this I took speed into consideration. More speed generally equals less control in all aspects of life whether it be driving, running or breaking a rack.

The most important two things in breaking a rack is first of course to make a ball and a close second to keep control of the CB so you have a shot. Now if you want that control you are going to break at say 75%. Wouldn't going with the heavier cue equal more transfer of power to the rack and the control to go with it?
Click to expand...

If that were the case, a driver(golf) would weigh 10lbs.
 
Drew said:
If that were the case, a driver(golf) would weigh 10lbs.
Click to expand...

You can't swing a 10lb driver at 70% of a regular driver. Not to mention the heavier drivers were made of wood which is not nearly as hard as the lighter drivers with graphite shafts and titanium faces.
 
gunzby said:
You can't swing a 10lb driver at 70% of a regular driver. Not to mention the heavier drivers were made of wood which is not nearly as hard as the lighter drivers with graphite shafts and titanium faces.
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10lbs was an exaggeration...but how about a 3lbs driver? You can keep a graphite shaft and titanium face and make it 3lbs.

Truth is...head speed is SOOOOO much more important than head mass.

Similar example: 100 years ago, the baseball bat was monstrous. These things weighed upwards of 3 or 4lbs. In the last 50 years or so, bats have become toothpicks rarely being heavier than 2lbs. Batters have become a lot more proficient.

Here's the physics:
E=(1/2)mv^2

-Holding velocity constant creates a linear relationship between energy and mass. Mass increases by 1, energy increases by 1/2. Mass increases by 2, energy increases by 1.
-Holding mass constant creates an exponential relationship between energy and velocity. Velocity increases by 1, energy increases by 1. Velocity increases by 2, energy increases by 4.

So which will yield more energy: increasing cue weight by 3oz or increasing cue speed by 3mph?

Of course, none of this matters in pool. Break speed does not necessarily mean pocketed balls. We know this from trial and error.
 
gunzby said:
I was thinking about the back and forth of break cue weights and have come up with a theory of my own.

The general ideas about the weight of your break cue have been:

-Heavier weight = more power transferred to CB = higher break speed
-Lighter weight = more cue speed = higher break speed

When I thought about this I took speed into consideration. More speed generally equals less control in all aspects of life whether it be driving, running or breaking a rack.

The most important two things in breaking a rack is first of course to make a ball and a close second to keep control of the CB so you have a shot. Now if you want that control you are going to break at say 75%. Wouldn't going with the heavier cue equal more transfer of power to the rack and the control to go with it?
Click to expand...

I'm with you on this one!
 
gunzby said:
I was thinking about the back and forth of break cue weights and have come up with a theory of my own.

The general ideas about the weight of your break cue have been:

-Heavier weight = more power transferred to CB = higher break speed
-Lighter weight = more cue speed = higher break speed

When I thought about this I took speed into consideration. More speed generally equals less control in all aspects of life whether it be driving, running or breaking a rack.

The most important two things in breaking a rack is first of course to make a ball and a close second to keep control of the CB so you have a shot. Now if you want that control you are going to break at say 75%. Wouldn't going with the heavier cue equal more transfer of power to the rack and the control to go with it?
Click to expand...

A very nice information but how will you consider then the desired weight of your BC to compensate the speed will it be at the front or tail end?
Some CM said forward wt and the other is end wt? Any idea about this?
 
I think a BC for hard breaking (like 8-ball and 10-ball) is a different weight for each player. I believe it has to do with a players strength, hieght, wieght, power, and if they are a 15 mph breaker or a 25 mph breaker or somewhere in between. It's more about control than it is about how hard you hit them or how fast your cue moves. Johnnyt
 
I do believe that speed is more important than weight in propelling the cue ball into the rack with more energy. The physics guys have pretty much proven this, and it makes sense to me.

Having said that, I think there is more to choosing which weight is right for which person.

Obviously, each person should use the heaviest break cue that he can swing the fastest and still have very good control. But, that weight is different for different people.

I have seen players that were very loose and could generate lots of speed. With these players, when the cue gets too heavy, they loose control because they are loose and trying to pull that heavy cue makes them move off the line a little bit.

I have seen players that were so tight, they just couldn't generate any speed at all no matter how light the cue is.

So I have come to the conclusion that players that are loose should generally use a lighter break cue as they can generate the speed that unlocks its power. Players that are tight need a heavier break cue because they need the energy of the heavy break cue at the slower speeds.

From my experience, all the bigger breakers are pretty loose, and use good speed. I have helped many players break much better just by telling them to stay real loose. It's amazing how their speed comes up almost instantly.

On another note about control, the best advice I have ever received came from Amanda Lampert. Amanda has a tremendous break for those who don't know. Amanda told me to follow through and never let the tip touch the table. In order to do that, I have to stay down, and not jump up like I used to. Between this tip and staying loose, I have developed a very good break.
 
I like forward weighted. It works better for me. I like the cue to be the same as my playing cue. I am familiar with that weight. I like a leather tip not a phenolic one. But it is like everything else. Try a a heavy one, try a light one, forward weighted, rear weighted. Pick the one that works for you. John
 
It really amazes me that one could even detect an ounce or two of weight
considering the strength of the arm. But I can sure feel the difference .
I am comfortable with an 18 ounce break cue. I believe that is what matters most. The cue should feel neither heavy or light imo. I tend to break at about 70% power. If it is 8b I will usually break on the 2nd ball unless
the cloth and rails are fast and I think I can make a ball and get out,
otherwise it seems I have sold out. A table may be giving up balls at 16 mph and not 20. Every table is different from night to night imo
That is just my take on it though
 
I remember an article way back in a billiards digest and it showed the lighter cue had more cuball speed than the heavy "breaking" cue! Every wonder why most muscle bound people cant hit a golf ball far off the tee! no club head speed!
 
The existing ideas about collisions are that most collisions preserve momentum, that is mass times velocity. However not all collisions preserve kinetic energy. Think of kinetic energy as the distance the balls will travel the more energy the greater the distance traveled.

Meaning if you increase the break cue weight it does imply a transfer to the break.

I've been working on defining which conditions preserve the most kinetic energy. The basics are (these are highly debatable):

Since after you cue ball is hit, it does not go faster, it is best to minimize the path between the cue ball and the rack, the effect is the sooner the ball gets to the rack the more energy it has to break them up.

Aside from that I haven't gotten much else.
 
mopower said:
I remember an article way back in a billiards digest and it showed the lighter cue had more cuball speed than the heavy "breaking" cue! Every wonder why most muscle bound people cant hit a golf ball far off the tee! no club head speed!
Click to expand...

Conservation of energy dictates that 0.5*mass*velocity^2 =KEi -> KEf is the amount of energy that can be transferred from one object to another based on a elastic or inelastic collision.

Assuming an elastic collision with break cue of mass m and velocity of v the initial KE (kinetic energy) is 0.5 *m * v^2

If the break cue is heavier with mass 2 and v then KE = m *v^2

If the break cue of mass m has speed 2v then KE = 0.5 * m * 4v^2 = 2mv^2 that is double the energy then if the mass were 2m and quadruple the energy from m, v combo.

The challenging part is do players know which angles to strike the cueball with the cue stick so the collision is inelastic or elastic because it has an effect for cheating pockets or freezing balls.

A simple test you can do is to hit the cue ball softly and then hit the cue ball strongly. What differences can you observe between the cue ball and the cue stick, are the times of contact different, do you hear a different sound from the contact, which stroke translates more energy into the cue ball, why do you think there is a difference in how much energy is translated? The test is designed to illustrate the static friction of the cue ball and the table, at slow speeds the static friction is more noticeable then at high speeds.

I remembered this information from physics class.
 
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mopower said:
I remember an article way back in a billiards digest and it showed the lighter cue had more cuball speed than the heavy "breaking" cue! Every wonder why most muscle bound people cant hit a golf ball far off the tee! no club head speed!
Click to expand...

tell that to Jason Zuback
 

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To me the discussion about the weight of the break cue doesn't matter as much as evaluating the end result of the break shot:
- Did you make a ball on the break?
- Did you control the cue ball?
- How well did you scatter the balls in the rack?

Your breaking ball technique probably has more influence over the break ball outcome than the weight of the cue.
 
FYI....the next release of StrokeAnalyzer will calculate the kenetic energy during the break speed measurement.

Also calculations for the mean and standard deviation of a group of break speeds measurements can be calculated. This could be used to test different break cue weights and determine which weight is best for an individual.
 
Robert Byrnes book 'Advanced Techniques of Pool And Billiards', page 37, gives a simple calculation to determine cue ball speed by using cue weight and cue speed. It is very interesting as is the entire book.

I do not feel comfortable quoting the book without his permission. Artists and authors should be compensated for their work---so buy the book. You won't regret the purchase.
 
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