Break Stats -- 2013 Mosconi Cup, Dec. 2013

[AtLarge]

Edit -- This post #1 is for the first 2 days of the event. See post #8 for results for the complete event.

I'm keeping track of the break results for the Mosconi Cup that started yesterday at the Mirage Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas. This event is 9-ball racing to 11 matches, with each match being a race to 6 games. There is one team match (everyone plays one game), 7 doubles matches, and up to 13 singles matches.

The players for the U.S. are Archer, Strickland, Morris, Van Boening, and Hatch. The players for Europe are Souquet, Immonen, Feijen, Appleton, and Boyes.

The conditions for this event include the following: Diamond 9' table, Simonis 860 cloth, Aramith balls, measles cue ball, triangle rack, jump cues allowed, referee racks with the 9-ball on the foot spot, alternate breaks, break from a break box that is about 12" wide, no illegal break rule, 30-sec. shot clock (60 sec. after the break), one 30-sec. extension per side per game, foul on all balls, and all slop counts.

Here are the results for DAYS 1 and 2 Combined -- Mon. 12/2 and Tues. 12/3. The score was 5-0 on Day 1 and 3-2 on Day 2, both in Europe's favor, for a total of 8-2 after two days.

The U.S. broke 47 times, with the following results[/U]:

• Made at least one ball (and did not foul) and won the game -- 8 (17%)​

• Made at least one ball (and did not foul) and lost the game -- 8 (17%)​

• Broke dry or fouled but won the game -- 7 (15%)​

• Broke dry or fouled and lost the game -- 24 (51%)​

Europe broke 49 times, with the following results:

• Made at least one ball (and did not foul) and won the game -- 10 (20%)​

• Made at least one ball (and did not foul) and lost the game -- 7 (14%)​

• Broke dry or fouled but won the game -- 16 (33%)​

• Broke dry or fouled and lost the game -- 16 (33%)​

For the two teams combined, a ball was made on the break (without fouling) 33 of the 96 games (34%), the breaker won 41 of the 96 games (43%), and the breaker won 18 of the 33 games (55%) in which he made a ball on the break and did not foul.

Break-and-run games:

• U.S. -- 4 out of 47 (9%) including 2 9-balls on the break; 2 out of 45 (4%) in games in which the 9-ball was not made on the break.​

• Europe -- 5 out of 49 (10%) including 3 9-balls on the break; 2 out of 46 (4%) in games in which the 9-ball was not made on the break.​

• Total -- 9 out of 96 (9%) including 5 9-balls on the break; 4 out of 91 (4%) in games in which the 9-ball was not made on the break. The 4 break and runs (excl. 9-balls) were by Van Boening (in a singles match), Feijen (singles), Immonen & Boyes (doubles), and Van Boening & Morris (doubles).​

 

[AtLarge]

Yikes -- anyone know how I might have gotten those green and blue things in post #1, and how to get rid of them?

Are they visible to others?

I think I might have contracted some computer illness watching the Mosconi Cup!

Edit -- If you see any links in post #1, please do not click on them.

 

[bdorman]

Yikes -- anyone know how I might have gotten those green and blue things in post #1, and how to get rid of them?

Are they visible to others?

I think I might have contracted some computer illness watching the Mosconi Cup!

Edit -- If you see any links in post #1, please do not click on them.

No links on my computer. Windows 7 running Firefox with some adblocker and antivirus software.

 

[AtLarge]

No links on my computer. Windows 7 running Firefox with some adblocker and antivirus software.

Thanks; I don't see them now, either. Strange ...

 

[Magog30]

It is incredible how both teams have combined to Break and Run only 4 of 91 breaks. (not including the 5 Golden breaks) That is only 4.4 %. And they are 5 of 96 for Golden Breaks, 5.2%.

9 Ball is so much more exciting when Break and Runs are the exception instead of the rule.

 

[Texas Prez]

Wow those are incredible stats! I think the rule change about breaking has really made for exciting pool.

We've seen a lot more skill shots and a ton more drama in these game - while it has increased the odds of getting lucky - it has made the game more enjoyable to watch. Maybe it will catch on more broadly.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Thanks for the stats. 4% break and runs is amazingly low. It's usually 30% or so when players have easy wing balls.

 

[AtLarge]

The 2013 Mosconi Cup has ended with an 11-2 victory for Europe. Here are the cumulative break results for the event.

DAYS 1 - 3 Combined -- Mon. 12/2 - Wed. 12/4.

The U.S. broke 61 times, with the following results[/U]:

• Made at least one ball (and did not foul) and won the game -- 12 (20%)​

• Made at least one ball (and did not foul) and lost the game -- 9 (15%)​

• Broke dry or fouled but won the game -- 8 (13%)​

• Broke dry or fouled and lost the game -- 32 (52%)​

Europe broke 64 times, with the following results:

• Made at least one ball (and did not foul) and won the game -- 12 (19%)​

• Made at least one ball (and did not foul) and lost the game -- 8 (13%)​

• Broke dry or fouled but won the game -- 23 (36%)​

• Broke dry or fouled and lost the game -- 21 (33%)​

For the two teams combined, a ball was made on the break (without fouling) 41 of the 125 games (33%), the breaker won 55 of the 125 games (44%), and the breaker won 24 of the 41 games (59%) in which he made a ball on the break and did not foul.

Break-and-run games:

• U.S. -- 6 out of 61 (10%) including 3 9-balls on the break; 3 out of 58 (5%) in games in which the 9-ball was not made on the break.​

• Europe -- 7 out of 64 (11%) including 4 9-balls on the break; 3 out of 60 (5%) in games in which the 9-ball was not made on the break.​

• Total -- 13 out of 125 (10%) including 7 9-balls on the break; 6 out of 118 (5%) in games in which the 9-ball was not made on the break.​

The 7 9-balls on the break were: 3 by Hatch and one each by Appleton, Immonen, Boyes, and Feijen.
The 6 break and runs (excl. 9-balls) were: by Van Boening, Feijen, and Strickland in singles matches, and by Immonen/Boyes, Van Boening/Morris, and Souquet/Appleton in doubles matches.

 

[JoeyA]

Yikes -- anyone know how I might have gotten those green and blue things in post #1, and how to get rid of them?

Are they visible to others?

I think I might have contracted some computer illness watching the Mosconi Cup!

Edit -- If you see any links in post #1, please do not click on them.

With all of the download and updates requested on the links yesterday and today for the Mosconi Cup Live-streams, it is a wonder if everyone doesn't come down with a cyber virus. Run a complete system scan with a good Virus Software like Norton Anti-Virus.

Oh yea, thanks for the stats. Always NICE!

JoeyA

 

[pt109]

Thanx for the stats once again, AtLarge.

I'm now convinced that breaking from the small box is very good for 9-ball.
Billy Johnson would have excelled with these rules, in his prime.

Naturally, I'm disappointed at the results for the USA team.
But good shooting for the Euros.

 

[BeiberLvr]

The 2013 Mosconi Cup has ended with an 11-2 victory for Europe. Here are the cumulative break results for the event.

DAYS 1 - 3 Combined -- Mon. 12/2 - Wed. 12/4.

The U.S. broke 61 times, with the following results[/U]:
• Made at least one ball (and did not foul) and won the game -- 12 (20%)
• Made at least one ball (and did not foul) and lost the game -- 9 (15%)
• Broke dry or fouled but won the game -- 8 (13%)
• Broke dry or fouled and lost the game -- 32 (52%)

Europe broke 64 times, with the following results:
• Made at least one ball (and did not foul) and won the game -- 12 (19%)
• Made at least one ball (and did not foul) and lost the game -- 8 (13%)
• Broke dry or fouled but won the game -- 23 (36%)
• Broke dry or fouled and lost the game -- 21 (33%)

For the two teams combined, a ball was made on the break (without fouling) 41 of the 125 games (33%), the breaker won 55 of the 125 games (44%), and the breaker won 24 of the 41 games (59%) in which he made a ball on the break and did not foul.

Break-and-run games:
• U.S. -- 6 out of 61 (10%) including 3 9-balls on the break; 3 out of 58 (5%) in games in which the 9-ball was not made on the break.
• Europe -- 7 out of 64 (11%) including 4 9-balls on the break; 3 out of 60 (5%) in games in which the 9-ball was not made on the break.
• Total -- 13 out of 125 (10%) including 7 9-balls on the break; 6 out of 118 (5%) in games in which the 9-ball was not made on the break.
The 7 9-balls on the break were: 3 by Hatch and one each by Appleton, Immonen, Boyes, and Feijen.
The 6 break and runs (excl. 9-balls) were: by Van Boening, Feijen, and Strickland in singles matches, and by Immonen/Boyes, Van Boening/Morris, and Souquet/Appleton in doubles matches.

I don't know what everyone else thinks, but to me, the stats in red really showcase how much better Team Europe played after the break.

 

[AtLarge]

... I'm now convinced that breaking from the small box is very good for 9-ball. ...

I, too, liked the use of the small breaking box, except for one thing. Seven games ended with one shot, the break shot. (Last year, no games were won making the 9-ball on the break.)

I don't like slop-counts pool for professionals in general, but, if you are going to play it, couldn't they at least disqualify the 9-ball on the break in these short races to 6? The break in this Cup became a search for how to make the 2-ball bound off the foot rail and kick the 9-ball into a side pocket or a head pocket.

 

[Joe T]

I, too, liked the use of the small breaking box, except for one thing. Seven games ended with one shot, the break shot. (Last year, no games were won making the 9-ball on the break.)

I don't like slop-counts pool for professionals in general, but, if you are going to play it, couldn't they at least disqualify the 9-ball on the break in these short races to 6? The break in this Cup became a search for how to make the 2-ball bound off the foot rail and kick the 9-ball into a side pocket or a head pocket.

First, thanks again for the stats. Yesterday I caught the end of the English 8 ball world championship and it went 10-10 and the guy snapped in the 8. I was like dam and then the called for a rerack, 8 didn't count. Same guy broke and ran out in dramatic fashion.

Oh yeah one more thing. I guess there was some unwritten agreement for these guys not to cut break? I'm not sure what went on there but if you do use these rules a cut break playing the 1 in the side is the break to use and you could probably make it 50% of the time. Not that I want to see that cuz I rather enjoyed what they did this week but if people do switch to these rules and I can't believe I'm going to say this, they would have to add the 3 balls past the headstring rule to prevent the soft 1 ball cut break.

 

[AtLarge]

... Oh yeah one more thing. I guess there was some unwritten agreement for these guys not to cut break? I'm not sure what went on there but if you do use these rules a cut break playing the 1 in the side is the break to use and you could probably make it 50% of the time. ...

How hard were you hitting it in your trials when you made it that often, and where were you sending the CB (what spin)?

 

[JAM]

Thanks for this.

BTW, for those who are worried about downloading a virus, it is a shame you did not download ADBLOCK first -- BEFORE watching Mosconi Cup.

Even with the 9 balls on the snap, it didn't help USA. Dennis, whose overall playing wasn't stellar, he did seem to do okay on the break.

 

[elvicash]

Not that I want to see that cuz I rather enjoyed what they did this week but if people do switch to these rules and I can't believe I'm going to say this, they would have to add the 3 balls past the headstring rule to prevent the soft 1 ball cut break.

Joe I think the 3 balls past the head string has killed the US in the past. Europe had better luck with it the little I watched. Would not the same effect perhaps be gained using a 3 balls past the 3rd diamond. When I remember past matches the US team would break hard but multiple balls would gather and stop just below the head string with that being called a foul. Didn't they just want to make sure the teams were breaking hard, not soft.

My question on the stats is how many lags did the US win and how many did they not even get it to the first diamond off the end rail? I am sure lots of people will think the break was not helping we did not want to win the lag, the break was a disadvantage. However, I do not think anyone on either team would want to be in a match and it be hill hill and them have to watch their opponent break to win the match, The lag winner breaks the last game, I think we want to win the lag.


Next question is how many matches went hill hill and in those matches how many were won by the breaker. I think at least once the 9 was made on the break to win but I could be wrong.


Stats are great. Pool needs more records of matches and something to judge the quality of play. I think we need a missed shot or bad safety stat where the incoming player receives an opening shot that is make-able. Thanks for the stats.

 

[Colin Colenso]

First, thanks again for the stats. Yesterday I caught the end of the English 8 ball world championship and it went 10-10 and the guy snapped in the 8. I was like dam and then the called for a rerack, 8 didn't count. Same guy broke and ran out in dramatic fashion.

Oh yeah one more thing. I guess there was some unwritten agreement for these guys not to cut break? I'm not sure what went on there but if you do use these rules a cut break playing the 1 in the side is the break to use and you could probably make it 50% of the time. Not that I want to see that cuz I rather enjoyed what they did this week but if people do switch to these rules and I can't believe I'm going to say this, they would have to add the 3 balls past the headstring rule to prevent the soft 1 ball cut break.

I saw a reference that Mika tweeted that on one break, SVB broke the gentleman's agreement by cutting one break.

I liked that it wasn't a breaking competition, but it became a safety competition, though the European players, as shown in the stats, were clearly enough better finishers that they would have dominated even if they'd had less of the rolls on the safety side of play.

 

[Joe T]

Joe I think the 3 balls past the head string has killed the US in the past. Europe had better luck with it the little I watched. Would not the same effect perhaps be gained using a 3 balls past the 3rd diamond. When I remember past matches the US team would break hard but multiple balls would gather and stop just below the head string with that being called a foul. Didn't they just want to make sure the teams were breaking hard, not soft.

My question on the stats is how many lags did the US win and how many did they not even get it to the first diamond off the end rail? I am sure lots of people will think the break was not helping we did not want to win the lag, the break was a disadvantage. However, I do not think anyone on either team would want to be in a match and it be hill hill and them have to watch their opponent break to win the match, The lag winner breaks the last game, I think we want to win the lag.


Next question is how many matches went hill hill and in those matches how many were won by the breaker. I think at least once the 9 was made on the break to win but I could be wrong.


Stats are great. Pool needs more records of matches and something to judge the quality of play. I think we need a missed shot or bad safety stat where the incoming player receives an opening shot that is make-able. Thanks for the stats.

I hated the 3 balls past the headstring rule because sometimes you could clearly see the player was trying to hit them hard and just dumb luck stopped 3 balls from passing the headstring. That was the intend of the rule, have players hit them hard. In this match I don't think there was a single break that 3 balls didn't pass the headstring because the players agreed (on the side) to not cut break.

About the lag I agree players were trying to lose the lag but I think it would have been better to try and win the lag and then defer the break if you didn't want to break. I know it would be tough to sit and sweat a hill hill with my opponent breaking but if the odds say the breaker loses more often I guess I would have to sweat it out, lol

On your last note I agree and think that balls missed or position errors as probably with most matches was clearly the deciding factor here, as it should be. Which imo means the break rules worked. I hate when the break (make a ball and get a shot) weighs in as a bigger factor than play errors. We need a bigger pool nut than Atlarge to go back and note easy, medium and tough shots missed by each team to see why we lost so bad, LOL not gonna happen.

 

[Joe T]

How hard were you hitting it in your trials when you made it that often, and where were you sending the CB (what spin)?

I hit them very soft. Cue ball about 4 inches off the spot, a little thinner than half ball hit, started with low outside and then decided on less outside and just let the cue ball die under the rack. I was simply looking for a break I thought would help us win more that was within the rules, I would not have got 3 balls past the headstring. I was thinking just play the 1 in the side, if I make it I may have a shot or safe on the 2 that would general end up near the side pocket I was breaking from and if I didn't make anything I wouldn't sell out nearly as much as I was seeing. I can send you a private link if you like, it won't be going public cuz its one of the grossest videos I ever made, lol

So the only way I see it right now is to keep the rules they had, small break box, 9 on the spot AND keep the rule I hated (3 balls past the headstring) and you might have the formula that promotes the breaks we saw throughout the week, which I thought was more entertaining for all of us.

OR we could switch to 15 ball, alternate the break and let the breaker starts each rack with ball in hand? hmm I should look into that

 

[denzy]

Another stat that was huge. Europe won 76 games total and USA won 49 games total difference of 27. At alternate the breaks that is a huge lead. Whenever I watched SVB give lessons going to a hundred was because he ran lots of racks. Here about the same amount of racks were run and such a big difference in the score.