Bring Back Hustling Culture
- Thread starter Minnesota Phat
- Start date
My buddy and I used to play for scratch off latto tickets then split the money if you win.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
The key to a successful hustle (without bodily injury) is to get your mark to believe in luck. Coin flipping might be a good start to a match rather than lagging. 9B is especially good for getting them to believe in luck. Many players don't see 2 way shots, or "free shots" where you leave the CB buried in no man's land if you were to miss. Add to that the sophisticated traps that might take them an additional shot to two to figure out they can't get shape and 9B is a game for real hustlers. 1P is a good gambling game but if you get anyone to bite on it, they won't believe in luck.
Luck, the hustler's best friend. If they believe they are getting bad rolls and bad luck it's not the poor upstanding hustler's fault.
Minnesota Phat
Active member
I just read the replies from the past few days, and I'm impressed by you guys' diversity of experience and opinion.
The encouraging words from some of you are much appreciated, especially since I'm just getting started with learning about this storied game (and boy do some of you have stories!).
One of the things I love about pool is that I can walk into a strange bar or billiards hall, and end up next to a talented guy with a fascinating life story, and I might even get to play against him.
That sort of thing doesn't happen with most sports - I've played streetball for decades, and it's once in a blue moon that I get to play with or against someone who is actually good at basketball, much less someone who can tell a good story.
If putting money on games was common in basketball, I'd have a MUCH easier time finding talented players to play, and talented players would be much more interested in getting to know me. Instead, streetball is almost 100% pure ego, or is played so casually that it's boring, and that's annoying to those of us who have a bit of talent, but who don't have enough talent to be hired by a professional basketball team.
I'm told there was a time when a talented pool player could make a decent living with just a pool stick and some moxie. Nowadays it looks like you'd have to be a one in a million talent to eke out even a meager living playing pool...
Or am I wrong? I do have a lot to learn.
The encouraging words from some of you are much appreciated, especially since I'm just getting started with learning about this storied game (and boy do some of you have stories!).
One of the things I love about pool is that I can walk into a strange bar or billiards hall, and end up next to a talented guy with a fascinating life story, and I might even get to play against him.
That sort of thing doesn't happen with most sports - I've played streetball for decades, and it's once in a blue moon that I get to play with or against someone who is actually good at basketball, much less someone who can tell a good story.
If putting money on games was common in basketball, I'd have a MUCH easier time finding talented players to play, and talented players would be much more interested in getting to know me. Instead, streetball is almost 100% pure ego, or is played so casually that it's boring, and that's annoying to those of us who have a bit of talent, but who don't have enough talent to be hired by a professional basketball team.
I'm told there was a time when a talented pool player could make a decent living with just a pool stick and some moxie. Nowadays it looks like you'd have to be a one in a million talent to eke out even a meager living playing pool...
Or am I wrong? I do have a lot to learn.
Not many people fire 4 barrels anymore. Used to be normal. By 2010 it was 2 barrels and stop or ask for weight.
One reason is action was harder to find, so if you lost, no guarantee you find more action to win the loss back. In the distant past, if you lost 4 barrels at $5 or $20 total. A hour later you might be in $20 races to 7 in a softer game. So losing $20 or 4 $5 races to 5 was a warm up for bigger action.
Action breeds action and sadly the reverse is true. If you might have to wait a week to get even-2 & done is reasonable. Sad situation.
I watched that evolution happen in the West Coast. It’s not dead everywhere. But here it is.
Gambol
Fatboy
In the distant past a talented player could eek out a living and be ok-if that person didn’t have habits(rarer than talent). But it was possible.
Now it takes elite talent to eek out a living with no habits. Super rare. It’s mostly dried up. See my post above this one. Details the reason why. The gambling “economy”
Best
Fatboy <——-been around this almost 40 years, seen my fair share. There is still big action. But not as much $20-$500 action which is better for B+ to A- players to be profitable.
Ahead sets are great action, they can grind days. I e seen 8-10 hour a day time limits and 2-3 days just to end up even.
Flip side Ive seen 2 8 ahead sets last about 3 hours for $10,000/set. Was CJ playing Mark Tadd. That’s my recollection-i know the bet was 10k I think the race was 8 ahead and it lasted maybe 3 hours.
I hope CJ confirms this here. He played perfect pool-nobody was beating him that night in Cue Club Vegas in 92ish. Nobody could beat CJ that night period.
Mark Tadd is/was a champion and he just ran into a wall that night/Mark was capable of playing like that too-he just didn’t get a shot. Was one of the best played gambling sessions I ever saw.
This is what I miss in pool, everyone was there that night 150 people, went from the Riv over to sweat and bet. I didn’t bet
. Lots of champions were there watching.Talent, gambol, big rail, knowledgeable people. Real pool.
Fatboy<——-got to see part of it,
PS: this wasn’t hustling, it was head-up gambling. 2 champions in action, no dump, no stream, no show up $. Just pool, real pure pool.
Minnesota Phat
Active member
And the thing about a night like that is the electricity in the air. You could be totally ignoring the action and playing at a table across the room, and it would feel more exciting than just playing where nothing much is going on.This is what I miss in pool, everyone was there that night 150 people, went from the Riv over to sweat and bet. I didn’t bet
Talent, gambol, big rail, knowledgeable people. Real pool.
Fatboy<——-got to see part of it,
PS: this wasn’t hustling, it was head-up gambling. 2 champions in action, no dump, no stream, no show up $. Just pool, real pure pool.
Thanks for your feedback about making money playing pool - that's what I had gathered based on looking at pool tournament winnings, although I suspect sponsorships help the top players a bit. It wouldn't surprise me if some pros are paid mostly in pool cues.
The electric in the air on a night like that is real. Around 2004/2005 IIRC I watched Steve “The Lizard” Smith and Harry Platis match up One Pocket every night for 2 weeks at Dr Cues in Seattle which is sadly long gone. The bet started around $1000 a set and got as high as 20K one night I believe. Harry was in Top Form on the table and talking a ton of shit the whole time to the Lizard’s stakehorse.
Like I said my memory is a little fuzzy but I think the spot was 9-7 initially and Lizard was rolling over Harry but when Harry got it to 9-6 it got much better odds for Harry. They would usually match up around 6 or 7pm and we would go in and play until they got going for a bit then sit back and watch the show. I ended up reading The Lizards book “ Through the eyes of the Lizard” after that which is a decent read. I honestly don’t know who came out ahead but I think Lizard came out on top.
I was a B+ player back in the late 80’s early 90’s stationed in Germany and we would go out to gamble with the Germans quite a bit. We weren’t betting big but it was a helluva lot of fun. One of my moves was to go into a place get a beer and act much drunker than I was but not obnoxious. I would put money on the table and when my turn came up I would pick a cue with a good tip and a obvious roll. I would roll the warped cue on the table, laugh when it was curved to hell and say close enough. I could play pretty damn sporty with that on a bar box with a big cue ball. The key was having the curve go up and you could actually get a good stroke with it.
I quit playing for almost 20 years until about 3 months ago when I started playing a BCA league and it’s getting me back into playing but it’s really not the same scene. I miss the old days when the bar tables would have coins lined under the rails waiting to play. I go into some bars now and the tables just sit there with no one playing.
Like I said my memory is a little fuzzy but I think the spot was 9-7 initially and Lizard was rolling over Harry but when Harry got it to 9-6 it got much better odds for Harry. They would usually match up around 6 or 7pm and we would go in and play until they got going for a bit then sit back and watch the show. I ended up reading The Lizards book “ Through the eyes of the Lizard” after that which is a decent read. I honestly don’t know who came out ahead but I think Lizard came out on top.
I was a B+ player back in the late 80’s early 90’s stationed in Germany and we would go out to gamble with the Germans quite a bit. We weren’t betting big but it was a helluva lot of fun. One of my moves was to go into a place get a beer and act much drunker than I was but not obnoxious. I would put money on the table and when my turn came up I would pick a cue with a good tip and a obvious roll. I would roll the warped cue on the table, laugh when it was curved to hell and say close enough. I could play pretty damn sporty with that on a bar box with a big cue ball. The key was having the curve go up and you could actually get a good stroke with it.
I quit playing for almost 20 years until about 3 months ago when I started playing a BCA league and it’s getting me back into playing but it’s really not the same scene. I miss the old days when the bar tables would have coins lined under the rails waiting to play. I go into some bars now and the tables just sit there with no one playing.
That’s true they get some product that they could sell, used to be more. I never played good enough to get a free tip scuffer lol.
There was electricity in the room that night. Was pretty cool. Last time I felt that was derby city bank game in 2018, and it had been a long time since before that. There’s a thread I started 2-3 weeks ago about yhst night and a link to the Accustats video.
Best
Fatboy
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tomatoshooter
Well-known member
It's probably a bit of a drive from Minnesota:
West Fourth Street Courts - Wikipedia
Minnesota Phat
Active member
Cool spot, but if I just walked up to that court, they probably wouldn't even let me play.It's probably a bit of a drive from Minnesota:
West Fourth Street Courts - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
It would be entirely different if staking games was customary, but without that culture, no one runs plays, no one forms cohesive teams for pick-up games, and it's just a clash of egos. Neighborhood spots like that can often be very cliquish.
I guess there's an organized league that plays at those courts, but that sounds like it's more or less semi-pro, and again I'd have to win a popularity contest without having any fair chance to play the type of game I'm good at playing.
If there were a culture of staking games, I could probably find some guys who would understand that running plays wins games, and who would play more like a college or pro team plays. Then we could go raid courts like the West Fourth Street Courts, and it'd be high-quality basketball instead of ten guys hogging the ball or clogging up the lane waiting for a rebound.
Minnesota Phat
Active member
How awesome! I'm a big fan, based on what little I know about Mr. Strickland. He's a big personality - not always perfect, I don't think, but very passionate.
On the Sky Sports documentary I believe he called himself a "headhunter," and said he was not a hustler, but he also spoke about challenging people's egos, spotting balls, etc. in order to persuade people to play money games against him. I'm not trying to be critical, but there's a bit of "hustle" to that sort of thing, although I recognize it's not the same type of hustle as pretending to be less talented than you are.
Minnesota Phat
Active member
Thanks man.
Personally, I'd agree to referee in exchange for time at a table - I can't be the only one. For low-money games, the players would just have to settle for a referee who might not be top-notch. For big-money games, the house would probably take a percentage of the cut, or would make good money in other ways (drinks, food, etc.), and that would pay for a really good referee.
Bouncers already exist at most billiards halls, whether or not they are called "bouncer."
My first impressions (maybe I'm wrong) of why gambling isn't a big thing in pool is because too many people and companies in that world have tried to discourage gambling in pool. If I'm correct, I think that was wrong-headed and self-defeating, and I think it backfired anyway.
Minnesota Phat
Active member
Much appreciated, Willie.
As you note, people ran out to play pool after "The Hustler." Hmm.
Yet people who make money on billiards say that hustling culture killed pool. Hmm.
Yet these same people who make money on billiards produce a bunch of products glorifying "the dark side" of pool. Hmm.
You mention one guy who is so scared of promoting any sort of shadiness in pool that he won't hold pool tournaments for adults. Is the problem there that pool is too shady, or that guys like that guy won't hold tournaments, and so there aren't as many tournaments as there might otherwise be?
Even after decades of the organizing bodies pushing against the image of "the hustler," people still want a skull and bones print on their pool cue.
One of the most famous/notorious billiards companies is named "Predator," despite some extremely distasteful connotations to the word "predator" (and I personally feel that such an aggressive name is trying too hard, leaving aside the fact that I hate Made in China cues).
I dunno - it doesn't seem to me that companies are really that serious about making pool a clean-cut sport, although they are seriously hustling (and not always in a good way).
[Edited to remove some arguably off-topic stuff about Predator]
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Yeah that happens as well ! In this cold , hard world I treat every situation/ person out here on the road the way they deserve to be treated.
……. I can be a Gentleman or their worse nightmare !!!!!!
My pride / Ego got me broke so many times and still does lol
, I had to stop going to Casinos 
WillieRackam
Member
That’s my understanding as well. Came from croquet on a rainy day in France. Couldn’t get wet, so a indoor version of a similar game was created.
Mallets were replaced by cues. I don’t recall the when advent of pockets in place of wickets occurred.
The word “pool” it is my understanding came during some period of economic hardship which was wide spread and work was limited so people gambled as a means to a end when there was little employment or money. Talk about tough action.
We still call it pool today, which is inaccurate as to the origins of the game.
Leagues are about the newest iteration of this sport.
And wow can you write. I need the 5 ball in writing from you!
Best and thanks, fun topic
Fatboy <——-missed history class as well
Nice to hear from you ... I'm eating breakfast with friends [they're about to show up, so I have a "second" to touch base.
Do us both a favor by at least replying so I can quickly find THIS comment and I'll give you some useful info ... probably today!
Willie
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
You're spot on about the conflicting messaging. I actually have no problem with the Predator name, I think of the competitor's killer instinct (hmm...maybe not the best term but you know what I mean) although there are certainly many less savory connotations of the word. That conflicting messaging is in a lot of places in our culture. Let's face it, "Wolf of Wall Street" made swindling people seem like a lot of fun.