Buddy Hall "Tuck & Roll"

[The Renfro]

I used to think this, but I think it's a bit like how players using BHE tend to get more spin. They're braver to hit further off center, because they're not having to align to judge the squirt.

Few players learn to align at max offset and stroke straight though the CB using side english. This contributes to their feeling that they can get more english when they swipe to the outer offset margins.

The math doesn't work out, imho, after thinking it through after some insightful critique by PJ.

Colin

Consider the contact time where the tip compresses and rebounds.. At firm speeds where contact times are getting close to equal at 1ms maybe there would be no discernible increase but on softer shots where the cue is staying in contact for longer periods and over greater distances the cueballs reaction will be different if the swerve/tuck and roll carry the tip outside of what would have been permissible misscue limits for a static stroke... At least that is what I see happening when I am trying to load the ball up with spin.. When I see lots of professionals evolving to utilize it I think there is way more merit than to toss it aside without serious testing and since we have no real testing labs to replicate the stroke required it will be up to the payers to try it and see if it's something they need to put in their toolkit...

 

[tableroll]

Only if you three stroke it!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...where the cue is staying in contact for longer periods and over greater distances the cueballs reaction will be different if the swerve/tuck and roll carry the tip outside of what would have been permissible misscue limits for a static stroke...

We already know what happens when the tip stays on the ball past the miscue limit - it slips. We also already know what happens when contact time is increased - nothing special. Why would we expect a crooked stroke to change anything?

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I don't think it adds any more spin than a straight wrist hitting the same spot on the cb, just think it adds more power which keeps the spin on the cb longer.

This could be true, at least for some players.

pj
chgo

 

[cookie man]

I notice you don't start whining until you're the one corrected.

pj
chgo

^^^^^^^^
Good post

 

[cookie man]

You could easily test it and actually know something - but that's not as much fun as arguing about it here.

pj
chgo

Oh i have. Unlike you i make my decisions on things by actually doing them. It's a technique taught to me by Bobby Leggs.

 

[cookie man]

I used to think this, but I think it's a bit like how players using BHE tend to get more spin. They're braver to hit further off center, because they're not having to align to judge the squirt.

Few players learn to align at max offset and stroke straight though the CB using side english. This contributes to their feeling that they can get more english when they swipe to the outer offset margins.



Colin

Yea but this is different than BHE. It's a tucking of the wrist at contact.
The second part i call using an angled cue, it's the best way for maximum english IMO.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Oh i have. Unlike you i make my decisions on things by actually doing them. It's a technique taught to me by Bobby Leggs.

This stuff is really simple to test:

- Shoot the CB from the spot straight to the side rail (at the second diamond) with maximum side spin

- Shoot the shot many times, with a straight stroke half the times and with a tuck 'n roll stroke half the times

- Keep the shots the same speed to minimize swerve differences (don't count shots that go too short/long)

Which one produces the most side spin effect (greatest angle of rebound)?

pj
chgo

 

[cookie man]

This stuff is really simple to test:

- Shoot the CB from the spot straight to the side rail (at the second diamond) with maximum side spin

- Shoot the shot many times, with a straight stroke half the times and with a tuck 'n roll stroke half the times

- Keep the shots the same speed to minimize swerve differences (don't count shots that go too short/long)

Which one produces the most side spin effect (greatest angle of rebound)?

pj
chgo

I use my technique in actual game situations. That's the real test. And i know i get more english. I'm not really into controlled testing

 

[JoeyA]

Oh i have. Unlike you i make my decisions on things by actually doing them. It's a technique taught to me by Bobby Leggs.

Bobby Leggs would rather spin his cue ball than eat ice cream.

Never saw another pool player in my life who liked to spin the cue ball more than Bobby Leggs.


JoeyA

 

[Colin Colenso]

To me, swiping is getting confused with what I would call in motion BHE or instroke BHE or tuck & roll.

If the cue is pivoted & then stroked to hit the ball, to me, that is normal BHE.

If the cue is taken back & then re-route during the stroke to pivot & stays in or on the bridge then that, to me, is in motion, in stroke, during stroke BHE or tuck & roll.

If the cue leaves the bridge & the tip 'clears' that, to me, is swiping or swooping.

If the current language police (not you Colin) want to call during stroke BHE... swiping, then another term would need to be concocted for when the cue leaves the bridge, perhaps 'clearing english'. Personally I think swiping is fine for those that knew what it meant.

Tuck & Roll was also fine for describing changing the cue orientation during the stroke as opposed to a pre-stroke pivot.

But, I guess a new generation has to make up their own language even though some of the old stuff has been around for many decades. Either that or run some of the science guys out of town on a rail.

Please note the some in front of the science guys.

Best 2 All.

PS I have essentially 3 yrs. of physics education so I am not a non science guy. I just live rather well within an athletes body.:wink:

I'm not familiar with a shot where the cue clears the bridge before or during impacting the CB. What happens after that is a different topic.

My definition of swiping is changing the cue line during the forward stroke.

This contrasts with how I usually execute the BHE pivot, which is to change the cue line prior to the backswing, delivering the cue back and forth in a straight motion.

One can also turn via the wrist or back arm at the back of the stroke and deliver the cue in a straight line off center. This appears like a swipe, but isn't really.

A swipe has some degree of arc, which affects the direction of the CB to some degree. My tests indicate that the direction change is not very significant on firm shots, but re-directs the CB significantly on slower shots.

A swipe can also include a bridge movement. This I don't recommend and it no longer becomes BHE if done this way. Though some players do get quite apt at it.

Is there any part of that you'd disagree with or rephrase?

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

Consider the contact time where the tip compresses and rebounds.. At firm speeds where contact times are getting close to equal at 1ms maybe there would be no discernible increase but on softer shots where the cue is staying in contact for longer periods and over greater distances the cueballs reaction will be different if the swerve/tuck and roll carry the tip outside of what would have been permissible misscue limits for a static stroke... At least that is what I see happening when I am trying to load the ball up with spin.. When I see lots of professionals evolving to utilize it I think there is way more merit than to toss it aside without serious testing and since we have no real testing labs to replicate the stroke required it will be up to the payers to try it and see if it's something they need to put in their toolkit...

Could you hit enter on occasion Chris... my eyes ain't so good :smile:

I hope I don't miss your point/s, but my thought on the difference between firm and slow is biomechanical. That it's physically difficult to move the back hand sideways anywhere near close to the speed that we can move the hand forward.

But on a slow shot, the sideways movement of the back arm can contribute a higher ratio of side to forward movement.

In effect, it's changing the direction of movement of the tip at contact, hence the direction in which force is applied.

If I move a cue forward very slowly, I can actually be moving the tip at 45 degrees to the shot line. Almost 90 degrees if I just swipe from the side with no forward movement.

Hope that makes sense.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

Yes, exactly. That's another time and place for tuck or roll. Go back to my previous post because I edited it after you made this one for what I think is additional clarification. My perspective has to do with neuromuscular spasms from nerves and controlling it with a conscious tuck and roll instead of an unwanted tuck and roll when least expected. I'm sure you've been in those nerve racking situations where the cue goes off in your hand.

I get what you're saying re: neuromuscular triggers. A curved stroke may feel more natural to some and allow them to loosen up on the stroke.

It's a bit like if one tries to shoot from a static backswing, or how some golfers need a wiggle or wrist bend to commence their swing. I've experienced when I need a straight stroke but my brain wants to pull the cue tip to the side, like some evil creature is second guessing the shot line.

My delayed response due to my out of sync sleeping patterns living at the butt crack end of the planet.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[cookie man]

Bobby Leggs would rather spin his cue ball than eat ice cream.

Never saw another pool player in my life who liked to spin the cue ball more than Bobby Leggs.


JoeyA

Amen to that brother.

 

[(((Satori)))]

This stuff is really simple to test:

- Shoot the CB from the spot straight to the side rail (at the second diamond) with maximum side spin

- Shoot the shot many times, with a straight stroke half the times and with a tuck 'n roll stroke half the times

- Keep the shots the same speed to minimize swerve differences (don't count shots that go too short/long)

Which one produces the most side spin effect (greatest angle of rebound)?

pj
chgo

I would add placing the logo on the cueball in the very center and then looking at the chalk mark after each shot to verify that you hit your spot.

 

[Allen Brown]

I heard tucking and rolling can cause blindness .

Correct........but this is why you do it in a dark closet while eating carrots.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I would add placing the logo on the cueball in the very center and then looking at the chalk mark after each shot to verify that you hit your spot.

Good thinking usually, but it isn't necessary for this test, since you're just trying to produce maximum spin.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'm not really into controlled testing

lol

No kidding?

pj
chgo

 

[(((Satori)))]

This could be true, at least for some players.

pj
chgo

I see.

I thought you were testing to see if a swipe and a straight stroke gave equal spin.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I don't think it adds any more spin than a straight wrist hitting the same spot on the cb, just think it adds more power which keeps the spin on the cb longer.

Patrick Johnson:
This could be true, at least for some players.

(((Satori))):
I see.

I thought you were testing to see if a swipe and a straight stroke gave equal spin.

This was just a side note. Adding power to a shot (greater RPMs) doesn't usually change the effect of spin (spin-to-speed ratio).

pj
chgo