"C" Player uses "Feel" to beat the ghost 9-1

Gerry, I just shot all your shots. You shot very well, good job. I made all the shots, but it usually took a couple of attempts. Some I made first attempt, some 2nd or third. One of the shots that was the backwards cut 3 rails inside with the OB in the center of the table I shot it maybe 10 times before making it. (I think you had this shot twice during the practice) That was rough, lol. I then learned it and shot it 3 or 4 times in a row.
 
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What is a descending view? Is that similar to a condescending one?

I guess you don't want to discuss what feel is. How about doing Colin Colenso's shot making test then as a benchmark of where you are?

If you say that you are guessing at the shot line every time then I can't say you aren't. Just that the use of the cue to point out a line and stepping into that line is not something new and is in my opinion not pure feel as I think you seem to mean by using "feel".
 
iusedtoberich said:
lol. No, I won't try to get you banned by reporting you. I'm sure if you were banned multiple times before, you will find a way to ban yourself again.
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hey I just came on to give tar some decent question for the podcast and hung around. I come back when ever i am in the mood. You on the other hand outed yourself with your lack of knowledge and video and did a disservice to all the anti aiming system guys because people reading this and looking at your video will think twice about taking yours/thier hating comments seriously. Nothing you can say to me on here can undue what you have shown in this thread, stop embarrassing yourself. :thumbup:
 
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iusedtoberich said:
Jerry, I just shot all your shots. You shot very well, good job. I made all the shots, but it usually took a couple of attempts. Some I made first attempt, some 2nd or third. One of the shots that was the backwards cut 3 rails inside with the OB in the center of the table I shot it maybe 10 times before making it. (I think you had this shot twice during the practice) That was rough, lol. I then learned it and shot it 3 or 4 times in a row.
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It's Gerry. I won't bug you much more but I want to point something out that perhaps you are overlooking.

It's not about these shots. These are only reference shots to show the different kinds of aiming points that work for all similar shots.

The strength in using a system, to me, is that when you come up against shots that are funny, off angle, not obvious, or just plain tough-looking, you have a method to use that you can depend on. You don't need to guess and hope that your feeling is right.

I guess the major problem I have is that you titled the thread mockingly to suggest that the reader would find a great performance using the guessing method of aiming and that's not what was shown.

I can totally understand that you don't like aiming systems, can't get them, don't care for them, see no need for them. Some days I honestly wish I had never learned any of them, I feel like I would be happier being ignorant of aiming systems.

But I am not and I respect the tremendous amount of work Hal Houle, Stan Shuffet, Ron Vitello, Ekkes and others have put into refining these methods and making them available. It is just sad to me that a self professed "C" player takes the liberty to mock them and mock those who try to learn from them.

I wish only you could see what I see when I face a tester. Being able to come with the "tough" shot when it counts is one of the most blissful moments in pool.
 
ALL shots are the same, no hard shots, no easy shots, just shots"

JB Cases said:
It's Gerry. I won't bug you much more but I want to point something out that perhaps you are overlooking.

It's not about these shots. These are only reference shots to show the different kinds of aiming points that work for all similar shots.

The strength in using a system, to me, is that when you come up against shots that are funny, off angle, not obvious, or just plain tough-looking, you have a method to use that you can depend on. You don't need to guess and hope that your feeling is right.

I guess the major problem I have is that you titled the thread mockingly to suggest that the reader would find a great performance using the guessing method of aiming and that's not what was shown.

I can totally understand that you don't like aiming systems, can't get them, don't care for them, see no need for them. Some days I honestly wish I had never learned any of them, I feel like I would be happier being ignorant of aiming systems.

But I am not and I respect the tremendous amount of work Hal Houle, Stan Shuffet, Ron Vitello, Ekkes and others have put into refining these methods and making them available. It is just sad to me that a self professed "C" player takes the liberty to mock them and mock those who try to learn from them.

I wish only you could see what I see when I face a tester. Being able to come with the "tough" shot when it counts is one of the most blissful moments in pool.
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Well said, and when I "come up against shots that are funny, off angle, not obvious, or just plain tough-looking" having a good "connection system" whether it's CTE Pro 1 or my 'Ultimate Aiming System' it shows the SIMILARITY in these shots.

"At the highest levels of pool ALL shots are the same, no hard shots, no easy shots, just shots" CJ Wiley
 
JB Cases said:
Your stroke appears to be decent so it's your aiming that is causing these near misses and the miss above.
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This is more for iusedtoberich, but it has to do with the quote above.

I agree that his stroke his decent, but there is one thing that I personally find to be a slight flaw. The cue could stand to be a bit more level. On your backswing, the back of the cue is rising, and looks like it's pulling to the right just a bit. Try loosening your grip on the backswing, and this will help you keep the cue level and straight when you pull it back.

This shot is a good example. Pay attention to how level the cue is when he pulls back, and how his grip hand loosens up on the final backswing.


http://youtu.be/aC2R84S0kiw?t=1m51s


Best of luck!
 
For the record, I did not report The One.

JB, I do want to try Colin's shotmaker test. I just got my own table a few months ago, and love being able to practice at home. That is one of the things on my to do list on pool. Actually, I get obsessed with one drill for a while, and might do it 50 times before moving onto the next. The one I was doing last was one of Kinnisters pattern drills. Those are what the donuts on my table are set up for.

I actually recorded my attempt of Gerry's shots that he linked today. Having trouble with the video file though... I'm still new to video, and its a new issue every time I take a video.

Gerry, apologies on spelling your name wrong, that was definitely not intentional.

To all: I know I do come off condescending towards aiming systems. However, I feel there is nothing wrong with showing that feel works just fine. This aiming subsection was started to move the aiming topics off of the main forum, and to allow the different opinions to "argue to your heart's content" as stated in the subsection title. I posted my video, just like the other members posted theirs. Their titles are (paraphrasing from memory...) "PRO 1 Works", "CTE Works", "90/90 helped me win a tournament" etc, etc. That is nothing different than me saying "Feel works" as I'm implying in my title.

Again, you can't compare me to Gerry's videos or Stan's. They are way better than me, and it doesn't have to do because they use a system and I don't. If we want to go that route, I'd just show videos of Schmidt running his 366 or whatever he caught on video. Or any video of Efren. It makes no sense comparing player to player. There is always someone better.

To put it in perspective, I was the last one picked in every school sports team. I simply don't have the same control of my mind/eye/body that they do. I worked very hard to play at a C+/B- level on my best days.

JB, that shot you paused at in my video completely surprised me. It was actually the only missed shot. The one before that one actually was about the same hit. It went, but almost missed. I have to go back and practice that for sure. That's why you hear me call out the time stamp of that shot after the miss. I wrote the time stamp down in my practice log to go back to it later. My cloth was pretty new and still sliding when I shot this video. I wonder if that was the reason. Of course it could have been my stroke, or my aim as well.

But to show you how my "feel" aiming works on that shot, I know I hit it to full. So my adjustment will be next time that exact shot comes up with that english, position situation, and cloth conditions, I will remember this miss, and go for a thinner hit. (If the practice of this shot pans out that it was my aim and not the stroke or cloth). My mind remembers the shots. I just don't assign any distinctive visual clues to it such as edges or centers, etc, like the system guys do. I just know when the whole picture is correct. Obviously, my picture needs to change on that shot.

To The One: Another thing to point out, obviously I'm not a great player. However, in that video, I made 39 of 40 shots, while controlling the CB fairly well. That takes considerable knowledge and skill to be able to do that. To suggest I'm a newbie APA 4 is really off base. An APA 4 might not make 39 shots in their entire night. To make 39 of 40 shots means you are doing something right. If my "feel" was off, there is no way I would have made that many shots (with position). Its just impossible.

BeiberLvr, thanks for the feedback. I've been told that before about the higher stick. One issue I have is my back really bothers me, so I think I try to keep the stick higher because of that. (My table is actually 6" higher to help my back as well). The guy who told me I had a high stick hadn't seen me in a year, and immediately noticed my stick was higher than it used to be. I never noticed it, but its good to have someone else point stuff out.
 
The point I was making was not just the shot you missed but so many others where you rattled the pocket. And then a couple, or maybe only one where you got up off the shot several times.

While you're right when you say it's not sensible to compare players skill level to skill level I still think it's not entirely proper to say "feel works" when using four ball outs and not clean shots as the example. Compared to others who have posted videos of them pocketing balls precisely and cleanly that is and crediting the aiming process as the foundation of that ability.

When you say next time when you shoot that exact shot you will know to cut it a little more this is the problem. What happens when you need to shoot that shot but it's in a little bit different position? Will you be guessing a little fuller or a little thinner than the shot you know? What becomes your baseline is my question?

Other than the slight mocking I do feel that you want to legitimately discuss this. So you posted the video and we can discuss it. Yes you made 39 out of 40 shots but other than a very few the shots were not "difficult". I won't discuss the patterns since this is the aiming forum. Out of those shots you made I would advise you to really review the video and see how many of them were actually close to a miss because you hit the rail first and the ball rattled in. This is the key thing I am trying to impart to you in this discussion.

You say you have worked really hard to get to the point where you can run four balls. I don't doubt it. But as CJ said when you can make a solid connection to the balls every shot looks the same. It gets to the point where you don't need to worry about being too thick or too thin, you don't need to be frustrated because you hit a ball too thick or too thin and you can't figure it out. If you miss a ball you simply have two reasons why you missed, either you chose the wrong aiming sights or you dogged your stroke.

I contend that when playing by feel, and by feel I mean guessing at the shot line, that it affects how you stroke when there is not 100% surety of aim. And this is part of what causes the near-misses. Anyway, bravo for putting the video up. To me it takes balls to put yourself out there and have to fade criticism. While we don't agree on your conclusions we can certainly agree that any discussion can lead to something beneficial.
 
I hope sometime before I die, I'll come to understand the reasons people are so passionate about their aiming system of choice to the point they'll argue endlessly. I can be perfectly honest in saying I don't give a shit what aiming systems other people prefer. If they like it, it works, great for them.
 
nobcitypool said:
I hope sometime before I die, I'll come to understand the reasons people are so passionate about their aiming system of choice to the point they'll argue endlessly. I can be perfectly honest in saying I don't give a shit what aiming systems other people prefer. If they like it, it works, great for them.
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LOL. That's the truth. All I can say is these aiming debates have gone on since pool was on the internet. Each side fights tooth and nail (including me, lol). Its usually the same 10 guys debating. There is a lull for a while, then someone will start a thread that will open up the can of worms again, like this thread did. Its really an interesting dynamic. Probably more people have been banned due to aiming discussions than any other topic.

I stayed out of this subform for quite a while, I think since it was created, and just now had the urge to post this thread. I'm not sure what made me do it, but something was triggered in me that caused it. Interesting question for sure.
 
iusedtoberich said:
For the record, I did not report The One.

JB, I do want to try Colin's shotmaker test. I just got my own table a few months ago, and love being able to practice at home. That is one of the things on my to do list on pool. Actually, I get obsessed with one drill for a while, and might do it 50 times before moving onto the next. The one I was doing last was one of Kinnisters pattern drills. Those are what the donuts on my table are set up for.

I actually recorded my attempt of Gerry's shots that he linked today. Having trouble with the video file though... I'm still new to video, and its a new issue every time I take a video.

Gerry, apologies on spelling your name wrong, that was definitely not intentional.

To all: I know I do come off condescending towards aiming systems. However, I feel there is nothing wrong with showing that feel works just fine. This aiming subsection was started to move the aiming topics off of the main forum, and to allow the different opinions to "argue to your heart's content" as stated in the subsection title. I posted my video, just like the other members posted theirs. Their titles are (paraphrasing from memory...) "PRO 1 Works", "CTE Works", "90/90 helped me win a tournament" etc, etc. That is nothing different than me saying "Feel works" as I'm implying in my title.

Again, you can't compare me to Gerry's videos or Stan's. They are way better than me, and it doesn't have to do because they use a system and I don't. If we want to go that route, I'd just show videos of Schmidt running his 366 or whatever he caught on video. Or any video of Efren. It makes no sense comparing player to player. There is always someone better.

To put it in perspective, I was the last one picked in every school sports team. I simply don't have the same control of my mind/eye/body that they do. I worked very hard to play at a C+/B- level on my best days.

JB, that shot you paused at in my video completely surprised me. It was actually the only missed shot. The one before that one actually was about the same hit. It went, but almost missed. I have to go back and practice that for sure. That's why you hear me call out the time stamp of that shot after the miss. I wrote the time stamp down in my practice log to go back to it later. My cloth was pretty new and still sliding when I shot this video. I wonder if that was the reason. Of course it could have been my stroke, or my aim as well.

But to show you how my "feel" aiming works on that shot, I know I hit it to full. So my adjustment will be next time that exact shot comes up with that english, position situation, and cloth conditions, I will remember this miss, and go for a thinner hit. (If the practice of this shot pans out that it was my aim and not the stroke or cloth). My mind remembers the shots. I just don't assign any distinctive visual clues to it such as edges or centers, etc, like the system guys do. I just know when the whole picture is correct. Obviously, my picture needs to change on that shot.

To The One: Another thing to point out, obviously I'm not a great player. However, in that video, I made 39 of 40 shots, while controlling the CB fairly well. That takes considerable knowledge and skill to be able to do that. To suggest I'm a newbie APA 4 is really off base. An APA 4 might not make 39 shots in their entire night. To make 39 of 40 shots means you are doing something right. If my "feel" was off, there is no way I would have made that many shots (with position). Its just impossible.

BeiberLvr, thanks for the feedback. I've been told that before about the higher stick. One issue I have is my back really bothers me, so I think I try to keep the stick higher because of that. (My table is actually 6" higher to help my back as well). The guy who told me I had a high stick hadn't seen me in a year, and immediately noticed my stick was higher than it used to be. I never noticed it, but its good to have someone else point stuff out.
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If you want to learn something, put a piece of paper on the line of your cue in that shot John posted and then hit pause and go repeatedly. ;) Since you only want to learn by "feel", I'll just leave it at that and let you figure out what you see and how to fix it.
 
nobcitypool said:
I hope sometime before I die, I'll come to understand the reasons people are so passionate about their aiming system of choice to the point they'll argue endlessly. I can be perfectly honest in saying I don't give a shit what aiming systems other people prefer. If they like it, it works, great for them.
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No waiting.

When someone says:

"aiming systems are bunk"
"you're a fool for believing in aiming systems"
"only a beginner would use an aiming system"
"aiming doesn't matter"

and so on.......these are the reasons people fight. If it were simply that people accepted other people's methods in a "whatever floats your boat" sort of way then this section wouldn't exist. Aiming discussions would be two pages long at most and die off quickly.

Thankfully most of this is over now and we are actually having pretty productive discussions.

As for this one, I think that people CAN aim by feel, that is they can pretty much guess where the line is each time, and have some success with that. I mean here in China I see people playing pool in outdoor pool rooms (is that an oxymoron) who I would bet have never had a single moment of instruction and yet they pocket balls well. Their position play is crap but any given shot they are about 50% or better to make it. So obviously these people can just figure out where the cue ball needs to go without any formal method or instruction.

But what I don't believe is that without some kind of super hyper intense effort that these people will ever become really good players. Efren and Shane both put in extremely huge amounts of table time to get where they are. I believe that IF you lock yourself in the basement and practice your ass off you can't help but to discover just about everything that a cue ball can do.

As I said here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoQcHkU1Dzo you don't NEED an aiming system if you have the time to put in on the table but I lay out reasons why in my opinion you would want an aiming system.

As Shane said he discovered the method he uses through his own practice. He now knows that if he does x with this type of cut and y with that type of cut it brings him consistently to the right shot line. He figured this out by spending all that time on the table and frankly this is the same thing that led to the discovery of all aiming systems imo.
 
aim by "sound"

JB Cases said:
No waiting.

When someone says:

"aiming systems are bunk"
"you're a fool for believing in aiming systems"
"only a beginner would use an aiming system"
"aiming doesn't matter"

and so on.......these are the reasons people fight. If it were simply that people accepted other people's methods in a "whatever floats your boat" sort of way then this section wouldn't exist. Aiming discussions would be two pages long at most and die off quickly.

Thankfully most of this is over now and we are actually having pretty productive discussions.

As for this one, I think that people CAN aim by feel, that is they can pretty much guess where the line is each time, and have some success with that. I mean here in China I see people playing pool in outdoor pool rooms (is that an oxymoron) who I would bet have never had a single moment of instruction and yet they pocket balls well. Their position play is crap but any given shot they are about 50% or better to make it. So obviously these people can just figure out where the cue ball needs to go without any formal method or instruction.

But what I don't believe is that without some kind of super hyper intense effort that these people will ever become really good players. Efren and Shane both put in extremely huge amounts of table time to get where they are. I believe that IF you lock yourself in the basement and practice your ass off you can't help but to discover just about everything that a cue ball can do.

As I said here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoQcHkU1Dzo you don't NEED an aiming system if you have the time to put in on the table but I lay out reasons why in my opinion you would want an aiming system.

As Shane said he discovered the method he uses through his own practice. He now knows that if he does x with this type of cut and y with that type of cut it brings him consistently to the right shot line. He figured this out by spending all that time on the table and frankly this is the same thing that led to the discovery of all aiming systems imo.
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If some people can really aim by "feel," then others must be able to aim by "sound". ;) .... therefore others could aim by "smell".

Only in ....... The Twilight Zone


th
 
CJ Wiley said:
If some people can really aim by "feel," then others must be able to aim by "sound". ;) .... therefore others could aim by "smell".

Only in ....... The Twilight Zone


th
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And yet, you are on record as saying that you have to "feel" the shot, that "feel" is the only right way to play, that visuals and all that other stuff are nonsense. hmmmm......
 
iusedtoberich,

Good shooting. I'm pretty steady with three-ball ghost; less so with 4 and 5-ball. In 16 months of playing I've only run three 9-ball racks (and those were only because of luck-of-the-layout).

I agree that people should use whatever works for them, but understand that your brain is using a system. When you line up a shot your brain is making a rapid-fire sequence of yes/no system decisions before it tells you "Yep, that's the one. Shoot it!"

Those yes/no decisions are based on reference points, just like an aiming system uses reference points.

Whether you give it a name or just call it "feel" makes no difference to your brain. It will keep using the system.
 
You had me for a second about beating the ghost 9-1 as a "C" till I read that it was the 4 ball ghost, the Casper of ghosts so to speak LOL :smile::grin:

I was about to go off on how there is no way in hell a C player can beat the ghost, you must be an A hehe. You have a very methodical way of getting down on the shot, almost like some instructor beat you till you did a perfect and identical preshot routine hehe.

I've managed to beat the 7 ball ghost a few times doing a race to 7, and have usually get to 5 before it kicks my butt. I also use the "feel" system, which really amounts to the "ghost ball" as that's what you pretty much have to use at first to learn to aim, then that turns into "feel".

iusedtoberich said:
Hello.

Youtube link:
http://youtu.be/aODllejl1u8

"C" player here that plays by "feel". Please see my video showing how feel aiming works for me. I beat the 4 ball ghost 9-1 in this attempt.

I'm a slow player, but I tried to edit the video so its reasonable in length (24 min for 10 racks). I've also been working on my patterns, so I'm taking extra time to think them through carefully before shooting.

This is my first public uploaded movie after months of messing around with different cameras, codecs, quicktime, imovie, firewire, youtube, vimeo, you name it! lol.

Enjoy!
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CJ Wiley said:
If some people can really aim by "feel," then others must be able to aim by "sound". ;) .... therefore others could aim by "smell".

Only in ....... The Twilight Zone
Click to expand...

Neil said:
And yet, you are on record as saying that you have to "feel" the shot, that "feel" is the only right way to play, that visuals and all that other stuff are nonsense. hmmmm......
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I wonder if art forums have the same problem. "How can you paint a giraffe without a system?"

The thing that matters is consistency, however you get there is your own choice.

As for what I'm willing to back it up with..

I'll gamble with anybody that's worse than I am. :p

And I know this much.. I don't think I'd want to gamble with either of you. :D
 
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