Pathetic Shark
Banned
Of course. It distorts the market - never a good thing.
"C" Player uses "Feel" to beat the ghost 9-1
- Thread starter iusedtoberich
- Start date
Of course. It distorts the market - never a good thing.
I would say almost every top player ever is a feel player. If its called a system by hitting enough balls to learn where to hit the ball, I guess everyone plays with a system. There's a reason pro's laugh at people who use aiming systems. It looks to me like the bashing is toward the majority who play with feel. If you use a aiming system and it works for you great, just don't think the majority of good players use one.
I just wanted to add, if everyone who claims they use a aiming system played me a set for 200, I would make one he$$ of a score!
Probably, but why don't you start with the most high profile players first and play them for a lot more since you probably think it's a lock?
Rodney, Stevie, Darren, Shane, Landon, and Phil are waiting for you.
Probably, but why don't you start with the most high profile players first and play them for a lot more since you probably think it's a lock?
Rodney, Stevie, Darren, Shane, Landon, and Phil are waiting for you.
Its funny, when Darren isn't advertising his SEE system, he is on TAR saying he plays by feel. Just saying.
Probably, but why don't you start with the most high profile players first and play them for a lot more since you probably think it's a lock?
Rodney, Stevie, Darren, Shane, Landon, and Phil are waiting for you.
If they ever play TAR, I'll take Alex "the feel" Pagulyan against those you list in the "system".
As far as I know everyone on that list other than Landon was a top player before they got into the aiming infomercials. Who is Phil? John, I like you and you seem to be a good guy, but your wrong on your idea of everyone being equal. I have to ask you, as much pool as you've played. why don't you play at pro speed with these aiming systems. You sure have the love for pool, which is one thing it takes. Not knocking your play, I've heard you play good. As far as playing the players on that list, I would think we would make a good match. We could call the match feel against systems.Probably, but why don't you start with the most high profile players first and play them for a lot more since you probably think it's a lock?
Rodney, Stevie, Darren, Shane, Landon, and Phil are waiting for you.
As far as I know everyone on that list other than Landon was a top player before they got into the aiming infomercials. Who is Phil? John, I like you and you seem to be a good guy, but your wrong on your idea of everyone being equal. I have to ask you, as much pool as you've played. why don't you play at pro speed with these aiming systems. You sure have the love for pool, which is one thing it takes. Not knocking your play, I've heard you play good. As far as playing the players on that list, I would think we would make a good match. We could call the match feel against systems.
My opinion:
If one talented player starts playing shots with "feel" from the very begining, he will soon realize that some shots just don't go in. Then he will start adjusting for these shots in order to make them. And sooner or later he will develop his own "system" !!!!! So, learning how to position your body (feet, shoulders, eyes, head position, bridge placement....) to make every shot is also a system !!!!
Thanks for reading
By definition, feel is a system, but it's not an organized system like CTE or dozens of others folks have come up with over the years. These might more appropriately be termed "methods" (i.e. they are based on a specific methodology). There is nothing methodological about playing by feel.
In the study of a musical instrument, various methods were developed that allow the progressive and organized advancement of technique that is reproducible over a wide range of abilities. CTE seems to meet these criteria, while feel does not.
Now, certainly, one can attain a very high level of musicianship without a methodical approach. There are thousands of pianists and guitarists who are awesome players and incredible musicians who never learned to play by the book, and they bring much pleasure to the world with their skill. However, when pushed really hard, most of them can't "play all the notes" as written. In contrast, virtually every serious student of the instrument who is taught a method by a competent teacher is almost guaranteed to achieve a very high level of technique.
Are they all "world class"? No, but they are so far ahead of the average "feel" musician in technique that it's no contest. I'm a "feel" blues guitarist who has been playing for over 45 years, and I play pretty durned good, even though I barely know what the notes on the fretboard are named. However, if I could go back in time and study the instrument in a proper and methodological manner, I'd do so in a heartbeat.
Same goes for pool, but I'm a little long in the tooth for that. I'll probably continue to aim by feel, but I do realize its limitations on the shots that I consistently have trouble with. Now, however, if reports come in that Stan's new DVD is easy to understand and is a bulletproof way to increase shotmaking ability, I'm sure to buy a copy and give it a go. I have a very open mind about such things.
In the study of a musical instrument, various methods were developed that allow the progressive and organized advancement of technique that is reproducible over a wide range of abilities. CTE seems to meet these criteria, while feel does not.
Now, certainly, one can attain a very high level of musicianship without a methodical approach. There are thousands of pianists and guitarists who are awesome players and incredible musicians who never learned to play by the book, and they bring much pleasure to the world with their skill. However, when pushed really hard, most of them can't "play all the notes" as written. In contrast, virtually every serious student of the instrument who is taught a method by a competent teacher is almost guaranteed to achieve a very high level of technique.
Are they all "world class"? No, but they are so far ahead of the average "feel" musician in technique that it's no contest. I'm a "feel" blues guitarist who has been playing for over 45 years, and I play pretty durned good, even though I barely know what the notes on the fretboard are named. However, if I could go back in time and study the instrument in a proper and methodological manner, I'd do so in a heartbeat.
Same goes for pool, but I'm a little long in the tooth for that. I'll probably continue to aim by feel, but I do realize its limitations on the shots that I consistently have trouble with. Now, however, if reports come in that Stan's new DVD is easy to understand and is a bulletproof way to increase shotmaking ability, I'm sure to buy a copy and give it a go. I have a very open mind about such things.
As far as I know everyone on that list other than Landon was a top player before they got into the aiming infomercials. Who is Phil? John, I like you and you seem to be a good guy, but your wrong on your idea of everyone being equal. I have to ask you, as much pool as you've played. why don't you play at pro speed with these aiming systems. You sure have the love for pool, which is one thing it takes. Not knocking your play, I've heard you play good. As far as playing the players on that list, I would think we would make a good match. We could call the match feel against systems.
He is referring to Phil Burford. Young guy from England I believe who is a strong supporter of Pro One. He is a very strong player.
Many other very good players not listed already use Pro One.
As far as I know everyone on that list other than Landon was a top player before they got into the aiming infomercials. Who is Phil? John, I like you and you seem to be a good guy, but your wrong on your idea of everyone being equal. I have to ask you, as much pool as you've played. why don't you play at pro speed with these aiming systems. You sure have the love for pool, which is one thing it takes. Not knocking your play, I've heard you play good. As far as playing the players on that list, I would think we would make a good match. We could call the match feel against systems.
How did they get to be top players? Did you interview all of them to find out how they learned and what they think about how to play?
The thing is that you are discounting the fact that these players are STATING that they use systems and that those systems help them to play even better. That's the whole point. So either they are ALL LYING or they really know that these methods help them.
Now, I don't know about you but when it comes to something like an aiming system if I were a top professional who cared about my reputation I wouldn't associate my name with any method that I knew is no good. At some point I have to expect that someone will ask me to show them or teach them and I would want to be able to do it.
Do you honestly think that Stevie Moore is LYING to his students and filling their heads with bullshit just to extract some money out of them?
I mean let's be really clear, Stevie doesn't need to teach aiming systems to have students lined up around the block taking lessons from him.
I printed flyers for Kelly Fisher back in 2006 announcing her lessons and she was getting $75 an hour giving lessons. None of these pros need to teach a special aiming system as a gimmick to get business. So logic dictates that IF they do teach a system then they really believe in it and can demonstrate and teach it effectively.
Now, back to the tired old argument of "if it's so good why aren't you a pro."
Let's assume I am really wealthy and I go and buy the fastest Formula1 car. The one used to win the last five races. So now I have the tool I need to win formula one races. But what don't I have?
No experience driving it, no racing experience, no feel for the car, no understanding of track conditions, no idea of how other drivers drive, and the list goes on. So how long would it take me to get all that even if I start with the best car?
This argument is such a red herring. The point of aiming systems is not that they make anyone into a champion. The point of them is to give the player a consistent and objective method to approach the shot. It's like being a mechanic with crappy tools. Every good mechanic knows the value of having good tools but having good tools doesn't make anyone a good mechanic. Only proper use of those tools at the right time does that.
And yes a good mechanic is good even without the right tools but a good mechanic with the right tools is fantastic.
(for me personally it's because I am simply not motivated to practice pool any more. With two small children and a growing business and back pain I simply don't care enough to try to get much better than I am and I currently play about two balls lower than my peak - but if someone wants to bet me $1000 that I can't beat the 9 ball ghost in a ten ahead set inside 12 months I will take that as motivation enough.)
If they ever play TAR, I'll take Alex "the feel" Pagulyan against those you list in the "system".
Sorry I can't bet against Alex. Not because I think he can't lose but because I bet on him when he was 20 games down against Shane and he brought it home for me. That kind of heart deserves my support all the time.
Actually Darren has never said he uses the SEE system exclusively. What he said is that it's VERY SIMILAR to what he already used and that he uses it on some shots.
And it's not Darren's SEE system, it's Ekkes in Germany's method.
Look, it's simple, you keep playing by feel and do what you want. You won't even discuss what feel is and can't define it and yet you point with your cue and step into the shot. So you are using a device to measure and plot your shot line and you call that feel.
It doesn't even matter if no pro uses a system or if they are wishy washy about talking about them. it doesn't matter if they don't like getting put on the spot about it.
The only thing that matters is does it work or not. And on that point CTE works perfectly as a method of aiming the cue ball into the object ball.
Any of you feel players are more than welcome to do Colin Colenso's shotmaking test.
I will put up your $100 and bet than NONE of the anti-system people in the thread will beat Dave Segal's score on that test in the next three days. Dave ran through it twice and missed one ball if I remember correctly.
So there you go. For you I will make it equal or beat Dave's score and give you the same three days you gave me. And I will go you one better and PAY you $50 to put up your best attempt if you don't beat it.
Here's the link to the thread if any one wants to try it. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=122451&highlight=aiming+test
Pathetic Shark
Banned
This is bet of the century.
I wonder if people really understand some of the things they write.
Why would it take 12 months? In other words, you have to practice.
So it is the practice and not the system used that matters.
If systems are so strong, why the need for 12 months of practice?
Cause, it ain't the system but the player, no matter what kind of silly bets are made in attempt to disprove this fact.
THIS from a guy that proclaims the benefits of the ghost ball system?? Can you beat the 9 ball ghost? If not, why not? Surely, in all your hours of practice, you must have realized by now that the ghost ball system helps in pocketing for you, not the rest of the game.
Ok you have the same bet and you have three months. My $2000 to your $1000.
And I will throw you one more bone. You must use the arrow on every shot.
Do we have action?
Only you know it's a dead lock for the other side. It will take 11 months to fix my stroke.
Pathetic Shark
Banned
How old are you, John? Mid-late 40s? If you've not shaken that chicken wing off by now, you never will. Mind you, you have to actually want to, obviously.