Calibrating Sidespin

[Patrick Johnson]

How much sidespin (offset from CB center) produces how much "action"? Here's the answer for the tables and balls I play with at my local pool room:



Using a Centennial ball's stripe to show the miscue limits on either side, I hit many sidespin shots and checked chalkmarks afterwards (the chalkmarks are too faint to see in the pics, but they're under the Xs).

For the cloth/ball conditions at my local pool room, the CB rebounds about 1 diamond wider for each 3/16" (1/3) of tip offset, up to 9/16" (3/3) at the miscue limit. This is true whether I'm hitting hard or soft and whether I'm aiming straight across the table or at an angle (the amount of added angle is 1 diamond per 3/16" offset) .

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

That's a very good example that relates the tip hit positon to the actual result. Just out of curiosity, do you know how far it is in milimeters from the center to the 3/3 miscue envelope?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

..........

 

[ENGLISH!]

Yes, that's the purpose. We often talk about "how much action" we get on the CB, but seldom do we actually try to quantify it like this.


The stripe on a Centennial is slightly over 1" wide, so let's say the miscue limit is 1/2" on either side of center. There are 25.4mm in one inch, so it's 12.7mm from center to miscue limit.

By the way, the circle around the numbers on Centennial balls is about 1" in diameter, almost the same diameter as the Centennial stripe is wide. This makes the Centennial circle a pretty good visual guide for how far from center we can hit before miscueing.

pj
chgo

So, effectively for the purpose of those still focused in on the 'TIP" idea, we can apply a 'hair' more than 1.5 'tips', let's say right english, by focusing on the left side of the tip moving fist 1/2 tip to the center line & then one(1) more full tip to the right. Or...the left edge can only hit a 'hair' more than one(1) full tip to the left. I'm saying edge, but I know it is not the 'edge' that actually makes contact. But it is more so with my soft, flatter tip with rounded edges.

I think the starting focus point might be dfiferent for some of us & thus the confusion or disagreement about the amount. Again your visual & the related results should clear some of that up

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So, effectively for the purpose of those still focused in on the 'TIP" idea, we can apply a 'hair' more than 1.5 'tips', let's say right english, by focusing on the left side of the tip moving fist 1/2 tip to the center line & then one(1) more full tip to the right. Or...the left edge can only hit a 'hair' more than one(1) full tip to the left. I'm saying edge, but I know it is not the 'edge' that actually makes contact. But it is more so with my soft, flatter tip with rounded edges.

If you say so.

I don't speak "tips" - too many dialects.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

If you say so.

I don't speak "tips" - too many dialects.

pj
chgo

I hear U. I like your way. I never 'calculate' where I'm going to hit it I just eye it up & know thru experience. But I think your way is a very good reference point for discussion purposes.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I hear U. I like your way. I never 'calculate' where I'm going to hit it I just eye it up & know thru experience. But I think your way is a very good reference point for discussion purposes.

Knowing how much tip offset produces how much angle change off the rail is also good for playing purposes - it makes "eyeing it up" more accurate and repeatable with less effort.

pj
chgo

 

[Jal]

How much sidespin (offset from CB center) produces how much "action"? Here's the answer for the tables and balls I play with at my local pool room:

View attachment 240865

Using a Centennial ball's stripe to show the miscue limits on either side, I hit many sidespin shots and checked chalkmarks afterwards (the chalkmarks are too faint to see in the pics, but they're under the Xs).

For the cloth/ball conditions at my local pool room, the CB rebounds about 1 diamond wider for each 3/16" (1/3) of tip offset, up to 9/16" (3/3) at the miscue limit. This is true whether I'm hitting hard or soft and whether I'm aiming straight across the table or at an angle (the amount of added angle is 1 diamond per 3/16" offset) .

pj
chgo

What a wonderfully simple relationship you've put forward...even I might be able to remember it. I realize this will vary a little on different tables, but it's another succinct rule of thumb. Thanks, Patrick.

Jim

 

[Neil]

I have put that info on here at least 4 times, usually in the "what's your shot" threads. Each time, without fail, I was lambasted for not knowing what I was talking about. Maybe you will have better luck than I did with this info. It is very strong when you simply pay attention to what you are doing. Good luck.

Incidentally, notice that you have 3 divisions on each side of center. And that your chalk mark is the size of a division. That shows why most of the instructors on here refer to the chalk mark size (3 mm) as a tip of english, and that you can get 3 tips of english. Makes it very easy to calculate.

 

[Robert Raiford]

How much sidespin (offset from CB center) produces how much "action"? Here's the answer for the tables and balls I play with at my local pool room...

Your results are just the, um...tip of the iceberg, Patrick I look forward to sharing my methods with you in the coming months now that I'm back to writing. In the meantime, good luck with your experiments. You're on the right track.

Robert

 

[Neil]

Your results are just the, um...tip of the iceberg, Patrick I look forward to sharing my methods with you in the coming months now that I'm back to writing. In the meantime, good luck with your experiments. You're on the right track.

Robert

How many more months till you get your book out, Robert? You've been teasing us with it for at least a year and a half. Looking forward to it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I have put that info on here at least 4 times, usually in the "what's your shot" threads.

I don't doubt it. Your insights made a lot of those threads - I miss them.

Incidentally, notice that you have 3 divisions on each side of center. And that your chalk mark is the size of a division. That shows why most of the instructors on here refer to the chalk mark size (3 mm) as a tip of english, and that you can get 3 tips of english. Makes it very easy to calculate.

I agree the chalk mark is a convenient reference - but I think it would be less confused and more widely useful if we called it what it is: a number of chalk marks, not a number of "tips".

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

I agree the chalk mark is a convenient reference - but I think it would be less confused and more widely useful if we called it what it is: a number of chalk marks, not a number of "tips".

pj
chgo[/QUOTE]

How about 'tip marks'? But then my soft tip mark might be bigger than someone elses hard tip mark. I guess the only thing to do to be accurate is to 'talk' milimeters of english & hope we can all accurately determine by eye what 6mms of english is. Personally I like fractions to miscue limit, 1/3, 1/2, etc. of maximum english. Just my off the cuff thoughts.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

How about 'tip marks'?

Works for me.

But then my soft tip mark might be bigger than someone elses hard tip mark.

They're just rough reminders, and probably more uniform than you think.

Personally I like fractions to miscue limit, 1/3, 1/2, etc. of maximum english. Just my off the cuff thoughts.

Me too, and not just for discussion. Visualizing the sidespin "range" calibrated in 1/3s is a useful reference during play - kinda like fractional aiming.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

By the way, the circle around the numbers on Centennial balls is about 1" in diameter, almost the same diameter as the Centennial stripe is wide. This makes the Centennial circle a pretty good visual guide for the miscue limit in all directions from center.

pj
chgo

Here's the Centennial circle compared with the Centennial stripe - it's slightly smaller, about 1" in diameter, so it's a slightly safer sidespin limit than the edge of the stripe is.

The circle makes any Centennial object ball a very useful practice cue ball - with the circle centered and facing your tip you can see after the fact how accurately you hit with any kind of spin - useful for measuring cueing accuracy and for calibrating spin effect.

The chalk marks are at 1/3, 2/3 and 3/3 of maximum sidespin, which produces about 1, 2 and 3 diamonds of cross-table angle (on my local pool room's equipment). They're 1/8" wide, about typical for chalk marks, I think.

pj
chgo

 

[greyghost]

Hillbilly teaches his english similar to this. One tip is on the outside edge and you have 2/3 tip and 1/3 tip. Simple way to break it down for people to understand too

-G.G.

 

[okinawa77]

I have a silly question...

Did you use parallel english during this test?
Or did you use back hand english?

Have you tried both types of english to see if the results are different?

It seems to me, in my experience, that the 2 different types of english produce slightly different results.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I have a silly question...

Did you use parallel english during this test?
Or did you use back hand english?

Have you tried both types of english to see if the results are different?

It seems to me, in my experience, that the 2 different types of english produce slightly different results.

I angled my cue/stroke by feel to compensate for squirt/swerve, moving both back hand and front hand to do it.

This isn't backhand english (which means to move your back hand but not your front hand - i.e., pivoting at the bridge).

It may be what you refer to as "parallel" english, which is not really parallel with anything.

pj
chgo

 

[LAMas]

I have a silly question...

Did you use parallel english during this test?
Or did you use back hand english?

Have you tried both types of english to see if the results are different?

It seems to me, in my experience, that the 2 different types of english produce slightly different results.

Not a silly question.
The angle of attack would be different and the results would be different.

I believe that parallel english is parallel to the original aim line and not at an angle to it as with BHE or FHE. Those that use feel may employ all three without thinking about the difference.

Be well.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I believe that parallel english is parallel to the original aim line and not at an angle to it as with BHE or FHE.

How are shots made without correcting for squirt/swerve? Or is "parallel english" only used when squirt/swerve cancel each other out?

pj
chgo