Call a foul on a newbie?

Ltldebbie said:
I would explain so he could understand and let it go the first time. Next time he's dead meat. Now he knows.....I find this all the time in my league I am still having trouble explaining the push shot.
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I'm the same way. I would have explained the rule but let him take the BIH... the first time. After that, game over chuck... no excuses.


As far as explaining the push out.... what's worked for me is explaining that "the cue ball can move to any position on the playing surface... it can.. but doesn't have to touch a ball or a rail. The key to the push out is that I, as your opponent, has the choice to accept the push and take the shot... or to give it back and you MUST make contact with the 1.. or lowest ball on the table."
Usually I get positive head nods and they get the concept that they want to play safe, but not a lock up safe... safe that they'll be able to do something with... well, you know what I mean... you know what a push out is lol:D
 
JoeyInCali said:
If you are frozen on the rail and hit the cb on top and miscue, would it be possible for your ferrule not to hit that cueball after miscuing?
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No, it is impossible that your ferrule would not hit the ball during a miscue. That is what a miscue is. Really.;)
 
thyme3421 said:
As far as explaining the push out.... what's worked for me is explaining that "the cue ball can move to any position on the playing surface... it can.. but doesn't have to touch a ball or a rail. The key to the push out is that I, as your opponent, has the choice to accept the push and take the shot... or to give it back and you MUST make contact with the 1.. or lowest ball on the table."
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What does push out have to do with Straight Pool?? Edit: I see, you were responding to ltldebbie. Sorry.
 
One time in the late 80s, I was in Ocala Florida hunting a game with the owner of a pool hall down there. Me and a buddy arrive only to see "Honest John" Ferber playing our designated Mark some 1 pocket. John had underestimated the 1 pocket game of his opponent and was in a bad spot giving up too much weight. The bet was a race to 5 for $300 as I remember it, a good wager in the late 80s for Ocala Florida.

The score was something like 2-1 in games and John was down a few balls to nothing in the 3rd game. His opponent slows kicks at a ball and doesnt hit a rail. Ferber yells "Thats a faaawwwlll" with his hick accent and walks over and picks up the cue ball. "What the hell do you think your doing?" His opponent says. "W'all it was a fawwwll and I gets ball in hand on a fawwwl raaht?" "Hell no you dont"

They argued back and forth until finally the guy Ferber was playing cracked his cue in anger and told John the game was over and to get the hell out.

Me and my buddy were stunned at this move. Ferber knew exactly that if he played stupid and cried FAWWWWWLL then it might just end this bad game.
 
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moves

There are moves and then there are moves . . . great story! I laughed out loud.

Hu



uwate said:
One time in the late 80s, I was in Ocala Florida hunting a game with the owner of a pool hall down there. Me and a buddy arrive only to see "Honest John" Ferber playing our designated Mark some 1 pocket. John had underestimated the 1 pocket game of his opponent and was in a bad spot giving up too much weight. The bet was a race to 5 for $300 as I remember it, a good wager in the late 80s for Ocala Florida.

The score was something like 2-1 in games and John was down a few balls to nothing in the 3rd game. His opponent slows kicks at a ball and doesnt hit a rail. Ferber yells "Thats a faaawwwlll" with his hick accent and walks over and picks up the cue ball. "What the hell do you think your doing?" His opponent says. "W'all it was a fawwwll and I gets ball in hand on a fawwwl raaht?" "Hell no you dont"

They argued back and forth until finally the guy Ferber was playing cracked his cue in anger and told John the game was over and to get the hell out.

Me and my buddy were stunned at this move. Ferber knew exactly that if he played stupid and cried FAWWWWWLL then it might just end this bad game.
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Normally I'd say anyone who says "the pocket moved" had too much to drink. :) But I'm in Berkeley and had the pleasure of experiencing my first quake, ever. I was on the third floor of a hotel, so maybe the magnitude seemed higher than it really was. Stuff fell off the shelf and my MacBook Pro screen shook wildly for some seconds.

Ironically, I thought about what effect it would have in a poolroom. Broken Rack in Emeryville California (where I sit writing this) is on the ground floor. The staff here say they felt the quake but didn't notice if the balls moved. If your opponent noticed the balls moving during the 5.6, who gets called on the foul? ;)

In all the straight pool leagues and tournaments I've played in, a foul costs you a point but your opponent takes the cue where it sits (no ball in hand).

Poolmouse
 
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Push shot foul not Push out

thyme3421 said:
As far as explaining the push out.... what's worked for me is explaining that "the cue ball can move to any position on the playing surface... it can.. but doesn't have to touch a ball or a rail. The key to the push out is that I, as your opponent, has the choice to accept the push and take the shot... or to give it back and you MUST make contact with the 1.. or lowest ball on the table."
Usually I get positive head nods and they get the concept that they want to play safe, but not a lock up safe... safe that they'll be able to do something with... well, you know what I mean... you know what a push out is lol:D
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Thanks for trying to explain but now I feel like I'm in an altered universe..

Noooooo, not the push out as in 9-Ball.... The push shot when two balls are frozen(one being the cue ball) and a legal hit must be by either jacking up the cue or hitting at 90 degree angle. Well, several angles but ya know what I mean. I was not referring to the push out which does not happen in straight pool or many other games as far as I know. I could be wrong it wouldn't be the first time.
 
I'm with TominCincy; I have also had this happen with players new to the game. I just have them put the cueball back in place, and explain that on such fouls the cue ball remains where it is. I then tell them that it would be a foul to pick it up (and I do NOT let them call it a foul this first time). If they do it again in the future then it would have to be a foul (everyone has to learn).
 
Ltldebbie said:
T ... The push shot when two balls are frozen (one being the cue ball) and a legal hit must be by either jacking up the cue or hitting at 90 degree angle. Well, several angles but ya know what I mean. ...
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That may be your local rule, but it is not the real rule at pool. If the cue ball is frozen to the object ball, you are permitted any normal stroke towards that object ball.

If you only play local people, this rule probably doesn't make much difference, but if you travel to major tournaments, or you play people strange to you, be prepared for a "good discussion" when the situation comes up.
 
By the way Bob, this is a good reason to place a new rule in the World Pool Rules? One of my beefs over the years is that the rules governing pool don't cover enough extaneous situations, like the one you're referring to.
In golf there's a rule for everything, everything.
Many times in pool you have to extrapolate from rules already in place and then leave the ruling up to the head referee as an interpretation.
I believe there should be a rule covering this very infraction.
Is there one?

Danny
 
Danny Kuykendal said:
... I believe there should be a rule covering this very infraction.
Is there one? ...
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As mentioned in another thread, the proposed revision of the WSR to be adopted in 2008 is available at http://www.sfbilliards.com/misc.htm as item 48, and the new proposed regulations are item 49. I think the situation of the cue ball being frozen to the object ball is covered.
 
Bob, sorry, that's not the rule I was referring to. The one about the cue ball being picked up during a game of straight pool, specifically.

Danny
 
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Danny Kuykendal said:
Bob, Is there a rule in pool, on any level that covers the infraction of someone picking up a cue ball in straight pool?
...
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It is unsportsmanlike conduct to intentionally move any ball in play other than by a shot.

The only way you are permitted to change the positions of the balls on the table is by taking a shot, except when you have cue ball in hand. The player may also empty pockets when the ref fails to do so, but that's the only time the player is permitted to touch balls out of play.

The referee has some latitude in how to treat unsportsmanlike conduct, but the standard penalty is the equivalent of a 3-foul penalty. That would be 16 points and re-break if the game was 14.1. In my capacity as referee in the situation cited above, I exercised my power as the referee and just gave the guy a warning. (In eight ball, which has no 3-foul rule, USLC is nominally loss of rack.)
 
Bob, but in his case, was it really unsportsmanlike conduct, when he picked up the ball thinking that the game was similar to 8-ball and that's a rule of 8 ball?

Wouldn't it have to fall into a different category?

Danny
 
Danny Kuykendal said:
Bob, but in his case, was it really unsportsmanlike conduct, when he picked up the ball thinking that the game was similar to 8-ball and that's a rule of 8 ball?

Wouldn't it have to fall into a different category?

Danny
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Well, you could argue that a sportsman knows the rules of the game he is playing, and so, in a technical sense, it is. I don't think it is worth specifying a "cluelessness foul." The instructions to the referee in the Regulations tell him to take into consideration the experience of the player in determining the penalty for the USLC.
 
Bob, How about a rule that specifically penalizes someone for picking up the cue ball when inappopriate? I've seen players in nine ball call "foul" and pick up the cue ball.

In my room we started calling this a foul. "Anyone picking up the cue ball without total agreement from both players and or the referee has fouled and his opponent has cue ball in hand."

I watched Tang Ho pick up a cue ball in a tourney several years ago, and it wasn't yet determined it was a foul. He got by with it of course, because his opponent didn't argue, but it was definitely questionable.

Doesn't this fall into a grey area?

Danny
 
mikepage said:
....If between the p-wave and the s-wave, your newbie opponent played a safety by pocketing the fifteenth ball, and the fourteen-ball rack has morphed into an irregular tetradecagon (also known as a tetrakaidecagon), do you rerack the fifteen balls together?
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Of course.
 
Danny Kuykendal said:
... Doesn't this fall into a grey area? ...
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It falls into the general area of screwing up while you are doing the jobs of the referee. (It is normally the referee who will declare the foul and pick up the cue ball for the incoming player.) I suppose something could be added to the Regulations about it. The Regulations talk about how the rules are normally implemented.

In the mean time, maybe you could ask the players to always acknowledge their fouls by picking up (or sticking over) the cue ball to the incoming player.
 
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