Called Safeties in 8-Ball & 9-Ball while Pocketing a Ball

GG11

GG11

Kill the Bunny
Silver Member
After a long discussion over dinner with my bestest, I seek the thoughts of the forum for advice/input.

Topic: Whether a player should be allowed to call a safety and pocket a ball in 8-ball and/or 9-ball/10-ball. The BCA currently allows a player to call a safety and pocket a ball, thus making their opponent shoot there after. The APA does not. (Please, let's not turn it into a BCA vs. APA discussion!) Which do you think is right for 8-ball?

9-ball/10-ball: Same question for this game. In call shot/call safe, should a player be allowed to call a safety and then pocket the legal ball. The two sides of this were:

NO: B/c if a player gets poor on position on the 8-ball (in 9-ball), allowing them to pocket the 8-ball and call safe, thus leaving a difficult 9-ball for the opposing player is poor play. It's more difficult to play safe without pocketing a ball."

YES: "isn't a safety about leaving your opponent bad when you can't get out?"

Perhaps if a player calls a safety, then makes a ball, the incoming player should have the option to either shoot the table as is or have the shooter shoot again?
 
Yes I don't see why not.

If it was your intention, and you called it, why shouldn't it be legal.
 
i currently play bca 8 ball and i hate that rule. i feel if you have a shot take it, if not lay up and play safe. i have never heard of it being used in 9 or 10 ball and would truly hate it in those games where safety play by hitting a ball and rail and leaving no shot is one of hardest parts of the game to do well. i just feel it's a chicken shit move and i my self never use the rule. i either hit a shot or play a ball, rail, hide safety.
 
I think in 8-ball it should be allowed, but in rotation games it shouldn't.

The reason is the nature of safeties in the different types of game. Since there's only ever 1 legal ball in a rotation game, it seems like it should be very easy to play safe, and it is in many situations. But the one thing that sometimes makes it hard is you have to hit the same ball you're hiding them from, and so to some extent, both balls (CB and low ball) have to both be moving. This is the one thing that keeps safety play in 9-ball from being way too easy. If you allow pocketing of the low ball but still turning over the table and forcing your opponent to shoot, it once again becomes way too easy to play safe. The low ball is off the table, so the only ball you have to control is the CB, and you only have to hide it from a single stationary ball.

In 8-ball, the reason safeties can be challenging is that your opponent may have legal balls all over the table. Whether or not you pocket the ball you're hitting has no effect on how easy it is to execute the safe. And I don't see why a player trying to play safe should be penalized if their ball accidentally goes in. I can't see any way the game suffers from this rule.

-Andrew
 
I like the rule, using it can sometimes really leave your opponent in a bad spot, especially if you next shot will be very difficult.
 
Making balls while playing a safe opens up more strategic options and favors the visionaries.

KK9 <-- sees things a lot, usually around closing time
 
Andrew Manning said:
I think in 8-ball it should be allowed, but in rotation games it shouldn't.

The reason is the nature of safeties in the different types of game. Since there's only ever 1 legal ball in a rotation game, it seems like it should be very easy to play safe, and it is in many situations. But the one thing that sometimes makes it hard is you have to hit the same ball you're hiding them from, and so to some extent, both balls (CB and low ball) have to both be moving. This is the one thing that keeps safety play in 9-ball from being way too easy. If you allow pocketing of the low ball but still turning over the table and forcing your opponent to shoot, it once again becomes way too easy to play safe. The low ball is off the table, so the only ball you have to control is the CB, and you only have to hide it from a single stationary ball.

In 8-ball, the reason safeties can be challenging is that your opponent may have legal balls all over the table. Whether or not you pocket the ball you're hitting has no effect on how easy it is to execute the safe. And I don't see why a player trying to play safe should be penalized if their ball accidentally goes in. I can't see any way the game suffers from this rule.

-Andrew
Click to expand...

I agree with this line of thinking. BCA 8-ball is a call-your-shot game. If a safety is called, then you are gonna give up the table NO MATTER what the outcome of the shot was because that is what you CALLED. That door swings both ways. It can cost you a game just as easily as it can win you one.

9 and 10-ball (rotation games) is a whole 'nother matter, as Andrew stated above!!!

Maniac
 
A main point for any league system is to help players learn the standardized rules

GG11 said:
After a long discussion over dinner with my bestest, I seek the thoughts of the forum for advice/input.

Topic: Whether a player should be allowed to call a safety and pocket a ball in 8-ball and/or 9-ball/10-ball. The BCA currently allows a player to call a safety and pocket a ball, thus making their opponent shoot there after. The APA does not. (Please, let's not turn it into a BCA vs. APA discussion!) Which do you think is right for 8-ball?

9-ball/10-ball: Same question for this game. In call shot/call safe, should a player be allowed to call a safety and then pocket the legal ball. The two sides of this were:

NO: B/c if a player gets poor on position on the 8-ball (in 9-ball), allowing them to pocket the 8-ball and call safe, thus leaving a difficult 9-ball for the opposing player is poor play. It's more difficult to play safe without pocketing a ball."

YES: "isn't a safety about leaving your opponent bad when you can't get out?"

Perhaps if a player calls a safety, then makes a ball, the incoming player should have the option to either shoot the table as is or have the shooter shoot again?
Click to expand...

Gail:

While called safeties are done all the time in pattern games like 8-ball and 14.1, I've NEVER heard of called safeties in rotation games like 9-ball. Actually, I correct myself -- the WPA world standardized rules for 10-ball do provide for called safeties as described here. And concerning 9-ball, honestly I don't think the major pool/billiard ruleset oversight committees (e.g. BCA, WPA) provide for called safeties, nor have they ever. This is why 10-ball, at least from how the WPA intended the game to be played, is so different from 9-ball -- every ball/pocket is nominated (no slop), called safeties are allowed, 10-ball's triangular rack is much less vulnerable to "wired balls on the break due to soft-breaking" than 9-ball, etc.

In my opinion, I think the purpose of any league system should be to help players learn the rules for the game as written; not to dumb-down the rules, nor add something to current rules that never existed before -- e.g. called safeties in 9-ball. APA's "customized" rules -- e.g. no such thing as "called safeties" in 8-ball, as well as "slop" being allowed [no ball/pocket nomination] except for the 8-ball itself -- are mind-numbingly silly, when one considers what the APA is supposedly all about: bring new players into the sport and helping them learn the game. How are they going to learn the game properly when APA's ruleset itself is so different from world-standardized rules for 8-ball?

Let's celebrate the games for what they are and the way that standardized rules intended them to be played. Humbly, let's not "apply lipstick to the 9-ball pig" and try to make it look/play like 10-ball. If we want called safeties in a rotation game, just play 10-ball, according to standardized rules.

Apologies for the pointed questions and thoughts, but I hope this is helpful,
-Sean
 
The rule for 8 ball HAS to be a good rule!

It's not any different than someone calling 7 ball in the side and shooting it straight in the corner. I absolutely love the rule and probably use it a little more than most, especially to leave a dead lock up safe behind another ball by the pocket, gain position, etc.

In Rotation games it absolutely CANNOT be a rule. #1 Reason being the game is a SLOP game. You make any ball on a legal shot and it's your turn again. If you were playing Call Shot Rotation, then I could see it coming into play, but I'd clarify the rules first on Slopped in Balls (Is it a foul? Do balls spot up?, etc.)
 
I think there is a flaw with this initial question. See, the REAL question that should be raised is if we're arguing a call-shot game versus a slop-shot game. It's very difficult to have both rules in place on a given shot. Either you have to designate which pocket you intend to put the object ball OR you are not obgliated to make any sort of designation. You can't do both.

So, if we're moving into call-shot rotation, we have to assume the average game-length is going to be affected since we're inherently allowing for more defensive options. The inevitable chain of events will yield longer matches and longer tournaments. How much will call-shot impact match-length? Is it 5%? 10%? 20%? This is an important question because if match length is increased by 20%, it could mean a 2-day event will need as much as 5 more hours to complete. No poolroom or tour director is going to allow this for long which is going to mean shortened races. Any sort of luck-factor you're attempting to minimize might be negated by a need to cut back the length of the race.

The APA's modified 8ball rules are there for plenty of reasons. The biggest is a practical one - all matches typically happen on the same table. Also, their intent is not to find the best player on the planet but to offer a pool-competition product for introductory players.
 
Andrew Manning said:
I think in 8-ball it should be allowed, but in rotation games it shouldn't.

The reason is the nature of safeties in the different types of game. Since there's only ever 1 legal ball in a rotation game, it seems like it should be very easy to play safe, and it is in many situations. But the one thing that sometimes makes it hard is you have to hit the same ball you're hiding them from, and so to some extent, both balls (CB and low ball) have to both be moving. This is the one thing that keeps safety play in 9-ball from being way too easy. If you allow pocketing of the low ball but still turning over the table and forcing your opponent to shoot, it once again becomes way too easy to play safe. The low ball is off the table, so the only ball you have to control is the CB, and you only have to hide it from a single stationary ball.

In 8-ball, the reason safeties can be challenging is that your opponent may have legal balls all over the table. Whether or not you pocket the ball you're hitting has no effect on how easy it is to execute the safe. And I don't see why a player trying to play safe should be penalized if their ball accidentally goes in. I can't see any way the game suffers from this rule.

-Andrew
Click to expand...

Thank you Andrew -- This was very well thought out and I appreciate the clarification. My additional question to you is the same to Jude below.

Jude Rosenstock said:
I think there is a flaw with this initial question. See, the REAL question that should be raised is if we're arguing a call-shot game versus a slop-shot game. It's very difficult to have both rules in place on a given shot. Either you have to designate which pocket you intend to put the object ball OR you are not obgliated to make any sort of designation. You can't do both.

So, if we're moving into call-shot rotation, we have to assume the average game-length is going to be affected since we're inherently allowing for more defensive options. The inevitable chain of events will yield longer matches and longer tournaments. How much will call-shot impact match-length? Is it 5%? 10%? 20%? This is an important question because if match length is increased by 20%, it could mean a 2-day event will need as much as 5 more hours to complete. No poolroom or tour director is going to allow this for long which is going to mean shortened races. Any sort of luck-factor you're attempting to minimize might be negated by a need to cut back the length of the race.

The APA's modified 8ball rules are there for plenty of reasons. The biggest is a practical one - all matches typically happen on the same table. Also, their intent is not to find the best player on the planet but to offer a pool-competition product for introductory players.
Click to expand...

Jude, I appreciate your concern for the timing constraints of the game with call shot/call safe rules. It's something we'll be managing, will difficulty I'm sure. But I'm more focused on the question in determining if a player calls safe and pockets the lowest ball on the table, what happens? Is the incoming player now required to shoot, or can they give the shot back, DESPITE the previous shooter's calling of SAFE.

EDIT: Sean found me the answer in the WPA rules! Thanks Sean!
 
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GG11 said:
sfleinen said:
10-ball, as it was played in the old days, and as the WPA resurrected and standardized it:

http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_10ball#9.6

-Sean
Click to expand...
This is great Sean -- thanks! I did not realize this was the way the WPA rules corrected this called safe/pocketing issue! :grin:
Click to expand...
When the WPA first wrote the rules for 10-ball making it a called shot game, they initially didn't have the part about passing a "safe" back to your opponent. After a bit of uproar on the forums (check this thread), the WPA modified the rules to include the pass back option. Thank goodness.
 
GG11 said:
After a long discussion over dinner with my bestest, I seek the thoughts of the forum for advice/input.

Topic: Whether a player should be allowed to call a safety and pocket a ball in 8-ball and/or 9-ball/10-ball. The BCA currently allows a player to call a safety and pocket a ball, thus making their opponent shoot there after. The APA does not. (Please, let's not turn it into a BCA vs. APA discussion!) Which do you think is right for 8-ball?

9-ball/10-ball: Same question for this game. In call shot/call safe, should a player be allowed to call a safety and then pocket the legal ball. The two sides of this were:

NO: B/c if a player gets poor on position on the 8-ball (in 9-ball), allowing them to pocket the 8-ball and call safe, thus leaving a difficult 9-ball for the opposing player is poor play. It's more difficult to play safe without pocketing a ball."

YES: "isn't a safety about leaving your opponent bad when you can't get out?"

Perhaps if a player calls a safety, then makes a ball, the incoming player should have the option to either shoot the table as is or have the shooter shoot again?
Click to expand...

Back when this was still America and pool was played on real pool tables
where you could spot pocketed balls, this was not so much of a problem.

IMHO - in Rotation games<9 ball, 10 ball, 6 ball...>pocketing a ball while
playing safe is counter to the concept of the game.
In 14.1, where all balls are created equal, spotting a ball typically will have
minimal effect on the incomming player - but in 9 ball, it can be too
advantages for the shooter - and leaving it in the pocket is even worse.

8 ball is less problematic - but I still lean toward the idea that if you
pocket a ball on a legal stroke - you must shoot again, regardless
of what you say prior to shooting.

For example - in One Pocket you can't call safe, shoot a ball into your
pocket, then require your opponent to shoot, can you?

Dale
 
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GG11 said:
Thank you Andrew -- This was very well thought out and I appreciate the clarification. My additional question to you is the same to Jude below.



Jude, I appreciate your concern for the timing constraints of the game with call shot/call safe rules. It's something we'll be managing, will difficulty I'm sure. But I'm more focused on the question in determining if a player calls safe and pockets the lowest ball on the table, what happens? Is the incoming player now required to shoot, or can they give the shot back, DESPITE the previous shooter's calling of SAFE.

EDIT: Sean found me the answer in the WPA rules! Thanks Sean!
Click to expand...

Well, I still have to wonder what problem you're trying to address by considering such a rule change. What's the end-goal? Are we trying to make pool less lucky? Is standard 9ball less popular now? What are players' biggest complaints? What are host-rooms' biggest complaints?
 
Only in 8-ball

jsp said:
When the WPA first wrote the rules for 10-ball making it a called shot game, they initially didn't have the part about passing a "safe" back to your opponent. After a bit of uproar on the forums (check this thread), the WPA modified the rules to include the pass back option. Thank goodness.
Click to expand...

You are only allowed to call a safe in 8-ball, and pocket th ball. 9-ball, it's still your turn. APA plays, you can't pocket the ball, because of the slop counts rule. There are always gonna be rules, that some feel don't belong in all the games, but this one I believe should stay as it is.
 
pdcue said:
Back when this was still America and pool was played on real pool tables where you could spot pocketed balls, this was not so much of a problem.

IMHO - in Rotation games<9 ball, 10 ball, 6 ball...>pocketing a ball while
playing safe is counter to the concept of the game.
In 14.1, where all balls are created equal, spotting a ball typically will have
minimal effect on the incomming player - but in 9 ball, it can be too
advantages for the shooter - and leaving it in the pocket is even worse.

8 ball is less problamatic - but I still lean toward the idea that if you
pocket a ball on a legal stroke - you must shoot again, regardles
of what you say prior to shooting.

For example - in One Pocket you can't call safe, shoot a ball into your
pocket, then require your opponent to shoot, can you?

Dale
Click to expand...
No, you can't do that in 1-pocket. But you can achieve essentially the same result by (1) pocketing your ball and then (2) taking an intentional foul by tapping the cue ball. Rarely would you want to do that, though. The only difference would be that in my situation you would be on one foul.

Cory
 
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