No is rather see ticket prices and product prices lower because it is us fans that pay those huge salaries. But that is a discussion for another day and thread.
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Can someone help me understand the thought process behind these requests?
- Thread starter Str8 Shots
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No is rather see ticket prices and product prices lower because it is us fans that pay those huge salaries. But that is a discussion for another day and thread.
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Just to set the record straight, the Rum Runner could care less if pro players attend.! They do not cover any expenses for pros! If fact, the tournament was created as a local event in honor of Andy Mercer. They have even changed the tournament to loser breaks to theoretically give the weaker players a chance.
They would actually rather see all locals playing! Those are the facts!
Bill Stock
Mark Cantrill completely misled you about the Nick Varner event. At no time did we ask him to reach out to you. I did not find out he had spoken to you about this event until he mentioned you contacted the people running the Wyoming Open about doing their event. We are not doing a PPV for this event. We are doing a free stream and Nick will retain all rights to the footage.
I have never said anything about you personally. I did however tell Mark the way you and him set up previous PPV events was unprofessional. He asked us to give you a chance but we never agreed to it because there were unresolved issues. First we would never agree to do things the way you and him had done in the past. Secondly we had concerns based on our experiences with your company from the consumer side. We had a talk with Mark about why he discussed doing a PPV event with you when he knew we had concerns about your company and also we were still in the planning stages when he brought this up to you. This happened at the same time as the Harriman/Schmidt fiasco. His response to us was when he hears an idea or has an idea he runs with it because he doesn’t like to sit still. He assured us that you knew he was just tossing around ideas and that nothing was set in stone. The above can be verified with text messages.
Daniel the reasons for our concerns are described below. This can all be verified with independent parties as these things were discussed in meetings we had with other companies regarding potential PPV matches. All of which took place before Mark Cantrill’s employment with Str8 Shots was terminated.
When we asked Mark Cantrill how the process between you and him worked, he explained that there was no contract and he would not pay you anything upfront. Instead you used advance sales to get yourself to the stream location as well as purchase the bandwidth necessary to operate. When the vent was over you would then print out a PayPal sheet to show him who purchased the PPV. You would provide him with proof of your expenses, deduct any additional expenses that had not already been taken out, split the remaining sales 50/50, and then you (POV) would retain all rights for the PPV.
What we said was unprofessional was spending money from sales before you delivered the product, not having people in place to address issues when they came up, and not being able to issue refunds promptly. We asked Mark if we could just pay people upfront to do the stream so they did not need to spend money from advance sales. He advised us not to do it that way. He said there was a risk of the PPV not being profitable and if the streamers assumed responsibility for their expenses and only got paid from sales, it reduced our losses. All of the risk was being taken by the streamer and they did it because they got to keep the rights to the PPV.
We told him we did not want the streamer to be able to keep the rights to the PPV. We were told that you would not agree to what we wanted nor did he think any streamer would. We already knew that was not the case because we had spoken with TAR and several streaming companies outside the industry; all of whom were agreeable to the terms as long as we paid a fee for their services and covered all of their expenses.
We also had issue with the way funds were distributed from the events you and him produced. These matches consist of two well-known players whom you market to generate the sales of the PPV; yet those players received no money from the PPV sales. Also the company(s) putting up the money for the event received no money from the PPV sales or the gate. I said that it didn’t seem right to me to ask everyone else to put money up for the event to happen and the only people with potential to make money were the ones who put no money into the event at all. Mark was also told that he needed to listen to what his potential customers wanted and try to make sure everyone was on the same page.
We did have concerns with your service and shared those concerns with Mark. In August we promoted the Decider event for POV Pool. On Friday, August 2, 2013, Marc and I tried to login to the PPV with the information we were given as sponsors to hear the event for free. When that didn’t work we purchased the event believing that there was an error with the free link. Again no luck getting into stream so we tried to contact you and Mark. We realized that you were both busy with the event so we waited to hear from you.
We started getting emails and FB posts from our customers asking us how they get into the PPV. We spent the evening handling the customer service side of your business with those people we had encouraged to purchase the event. People wanted refunds. We could not issue refunds because we had no access to any information. I even sent you an email early that evening with a couple of names of people asking for refunds and to this day have not gotten a response to that email. We did not throw you under the bus that night but took the time to send private messages, emails as well as respond to the posts made in the open to those having issues.
You can verify this by clicking this link. https://www.facebook.com/str8shots....0.1391603881./489373931152419/?type=3&theater
On Saturday the stream worked but on Sunday we encountered the same problems and never got into the stream. The entire scenario repeated itself. When we got ahold of Mark his response was to tell the people that it was POV’s problem. That’s great customer service right? Also it was more than a month after the event before refunds were issued.
You stated we should have reached out to you to avoid scheduling conflicts with these types of events. You have been aware since late October, early November, that we were going to provide a stream at the Nick Varner. I am curious as to why you did not reach out to us since you acknowledge that you did not even seal the deal on your event until yesterday. When you were sealing the deal with Rum Runner did you point out to them there were conflicting streams?
Daniel this has nothing to do with you being likeable or a good person. It’s business. We chose to go with TAR because he produces high quality streams, his customer service is top notch, and we were able to negotiate terms that were agreeable to all involved. I wish you well with the Rum Runner event and everything you do in the future.
****NOTE****
NOT ALL PPV COMPANIES DO THINGS AS DESCRIBED ABOVE. SOME OF THEM PUT THE MONEY UP FOR THE MATCHES, COVER THE PLAYERS EXPENSES, PAY FOR THE BANDWIDTH AS WELL AS ASSUME ALL THE RISK FOR THE SUCCESS OR FAILURE OF THE PPV. IN MY OPINION THOSE COMPANIES HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO WHATEVER THEY WISH REGARDING THE PPV RIGHTS AND ALL PROFITS MADE FROM PPV SALES.
I have chosen to take the high road on all this BS and have not been involved in any of the threads so far that involve Str8-Shots. However I will not let Str8-shots just run over me AGAIN. This will be my only post before I get back on the high road.
My job was to make events as profitable and risk free as possible for str8-shots. I did that only for it to be used against me with whoever will listen. mainly the people that I had helped you build a relationship with. Some have listened and believe in you. Many are beginning to see a pattern. Please leave me out of your comments as I have not bashed you. I know too much and can come out with many things that you have said about many people and more. I really am taking the high road and its hard to do, I know how convincing you can be and I am not shocked that people listen and believe. Please Leave me out of everything you are doing and talking about. Thank you and I wish you luck.
I am not going to address all of the points you bring up in this post publicly, but thank you for responding. I will accept responsibility for some of your grievances, however it saddens me that our relationship dissolved this way. It's not because you are the mighty 'Str8 Shots' or anything. It's mainly because we had no direct contact, which gave us no chance to work together, so to speak.
- My apologies for assuming that my source was correct in stating that the 'Varner' Event is PPV. To be honest, this was the main source of my upset, so I apologize for the 'false flag', as it were. (I will edit the post).
- I did not know the actual dates of the Rum Runner until 2 weeks ago, but since you are doing your event for free, I don't see an issue. The Rum Runner was not aware of this until I told them. The Rum Runner is not afraid of losing any business. It does suck for some players who might be torn.
- Most of the posters in this thread say that you should present players with the 'take it, or leave it' option. I don't think you should go out of your way to pay people to appear in your event. I think you are justified in asking for advice on this.
- I agree with you, that players should get a share of the PPV revenue. I do not have to go to great lengths to discuss this. You can read one of my latest PRESS RELEASES on this subject. I was actually a little shocked about Montana, because when I asked, 'What do the players require?' I was told that they are being handled.
- That Montana PPV event with Mark was a clusterf**k of problems which happened all at once, and I wonder if even TAR or any other company would have been able to handle that fire.
A) My hosting company (HostGator) went down completely that weekend and made it impossible for me to do any proper programming of the show in time.
B) The streaming service that I paid to provide me with bandwidth was terrible! In fact, it was the same company used by Inside Pool for the Earl/Efren Match that nobody could watch.
C) As it turned out, this company was so incompetent that they actually provided an non-secure gateway, without telling me and I was very busy trying to make sure that these guys fixed it before the show started, so that people couldn't watch the show for free. When this was finally fixed, everyone's passwords and Logins were effectively 'ZAPPED' - Michelle and I had to personally issue individual passwords and logins for each person that paid to watch. All in all, everyone got on with the exception of about 14 people who were exasperated and demanded refunds (Which did not take 30 days except yours for some god-awful reason.)
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To be honest, this type of scenario should never had occurred and will never occur again, because I am now working with a better company for bandwidth that knows what they are doing.
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Also - I did not obtain all the rights to that PPV - You are misinformed.
Furthermore, these deals are usually worked out on a show by show basis. Please do not assume that because of one deal that I make with a promotor, it's a standard deal. I had a great time, working with Mark, and we have no problem with each other. As much as I hate to say it, Mark was right in telling you that it was POV's problem. It essentially was my problem. Mark had nothing to do with the technical side of it. I made it my problem and tried address it immediately.
Would I do it differently? Probably. Will I do it differently? I already am.
New outsourced company, new people in place and new technical setup.
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- As far as people hitting you up on FB for refunds. Hmmmm - Let's see. This happens to me EVERY time i promote someone's event. I end up directing traffic and correspondence all the time, when it's not even in my domain. I have had requests from people asking me for refunds on the DCC, TAR matches, Inside Pool, and others. So, I'm sorry that you feel that you are doing my job, but this is really a problem of perception; that you are generally taking a risk when promoting other people and products, they think that you are the proprietor of such events or products. I've even had people ask me how much I sell the Kamui Tips for. I don't sell the tips. All that I'm saying is, get used to it, you are now in the promoting biz.
Free streams are much less of a headache! You're going to have a lot of fun with that.
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In conclusion: My hat is off to you for choosing TAR. Justin's got a lot more clout in the professional pool scene than I do, he uses great gear and it's good to hear that he's getting out of Vegas and doing something on the road.
I wish you the best of luck and success, but I'm also afraid that I will be busy promoting and getting people to play the Rum Runner event. PPV is always a risk and am relatively new to that game. I would like to mention that %15 of the profits of the Rum Runner PPV will go toward the prize fund of the event.
Any help in promoting this, is appreciated.
Thanks
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Mark we would like nothing more than to be done with you and all of the nonsense. However let me point out that the people you have taken the high road with are the ones that keep bringing you into these discussions; at which point we respond. If you don't want us to respond to people then you should ask these people to quit bringing up what you have said to them in secret while on the high road.
So what you are saying is you basically do everything you can to s**t on long-standing pool establishments. First it was TAR where you supposedly "didn't know" anything about the feud between Schmidt and Harriman yet those two were the two you selected to schedule a match. Now it is a recurring tournament around for many years.
Do you seriously understand how obnoxious your group comes off. The TAR thing was absolutely horrible, but everyone wants to make money. If TAR couldn't make it happen why not try. Saying "we didn't know" is ridiculous and makes your group either liars or the most glazed over individuals of all time. So, ok, we all excuse this one instance and move on.
Then you part ways with your most visible asset, bfdlad. Good, bad, or indifferent it was negative publicity. Terminations should be handled in private. I mean it's not like bfdlad was Don Imus. Just fire him and move on. Too much drama.
Now not only do you schedule over a major tournament, you come on here to complain about how tough it is to get pro players. You don't deserve support.
DISCLAIMER: The above is my opinion and I'm sticking to it and voicing it.
Daniel,
I really don't get this.
STR8-shots is a relatively new promoter of pool and very new to AZB and you're raking them over the coals. Why?
TAR doesn't seem to have any problems with what and how things were handled between STR8-shots and TAR. Why even bring them into the "discussion"?
As to STR8-shots scheduling a tournament at the same time as the Rum Runner, it doesn't seem to be a big deal to the Rum Runner people either.
What gives? You don't seem to be the kind of guy to get his jollies from raking people over the coals, especially in this forum.
JoeyA
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I am all for people sharing their opinions but I do believe you should educate yourself a bit for jumping in and making statements against people you know nothing about. Marc (my husband) and I knew absolutely nothing about the feud between Danny Harriman and John Schmidt. When bfdlad first mentioned the name Danny Harriman to me I had to ask who he was because I had never heard of him before. (No offense Danny)
If you need verification of whom in our company knew what, you can read what was written by bfdlad regarding this subject. I do not believe that bfdlad had anything but good intentions when he worked on this match. He knew that it was a much anticipated match and he is a hard working individual who cannot sit on his hands waiting for something to do. It all happened very quickly and many lessons were learned the hard way. We can all sit around slamming everyone for something that could have been handled better but at the end of the day we accept responsibility, learn from our mistakes, and use the lesson to do things better in the future.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=338358&page=24
As for bfdlad’s termination, I couldn’t agree with your statement more. However he felt like he needed to share it on this forum. I agree that it was a lot of unnecessary drama but it was his choice and he has every right to do whatever he wishes.
I never said it was tough to get professional players in the Nick Varner tournament. I asked for advice on how things were typically handled with entry fees and expenses for professional players. Several people felt that I had no right to ask for “free advice” on this forum so I will respect that and refrain from doing so in the future.
If you do not wish to support our company, that is your choice. I do not hold any ill will towards anyone who takes that stance as I understand how I came across with my first post and I am fully aware of the consequences of my actions.
I hope you have a wonderful day!
P.S. Every time this match gets brought up the question arises as to whether or not Danny got paid. Danny and John were both paid the same amount of money. If they wish to share what that sum was that is their prerogative but I will not.
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Joey,
I appreciate you asking and I will gladly answer. I would never have brought TAR up had this not seemed to be a consistent trend with Str8 Shots. I even mentioned in my post that I would easily let the Schmidt/Harriman match issue slide.
I could probably say nothing and just keep witnessing train wrecks, but after seeing three in a row from Str8 Shots I felt like saying something. The situations alone are really no big deal, at least not individually. My issue is really the drama and negative publicity this company appears to bring with them.
I don't stalk Str8 Shots nor have I checked their thread history, but I recall these threads and no positive ones to this point. As you mention my posting history, I'll mention yours. You are a positive poster. You give enthusiastic trip reports, discuss intricacies of the game, talk about upcoming events and players. I post about matches, player histories, action, etc. I feel all of these things work towards making AZB a better place. I don't recall any such posts from Str8 Shots. Either they have not which gives them little credibility on the board, and if they have then they fail by allowing the drama to far overshadow their positive contribution.
This is a great closing to your post. The issue as I see it, and I am only one person so no big deal, is that you need to start threads with this positivity. Most people have an issue called "recentcy error". This means that what you did last has the largest effect on someone's opinion of you. I wish all pool promoters success and hope to see our sport grow. I will certainly support your events in the future after I see a record of positive contribution. I am just one voice, but I hope you heed it as I know I am not the only one feeling this way. Please start your promotion on a positive note in the future.
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Yeesh. I didn't wanna bring this up before but...
The tone of the original post reads like:
"Can someone explain to me why my potential customers/employees are so irrational?
Clearly when you compare my product to this other guy's, mine is just as good if not better.
But they act like it's worse, and keep telling me I need to improve or they won't go with mine.
What they're asking for is obviously BS... Do these guys have some nerve or what?"
I can understand the need to vent and the need for a sympathetic ear,
but the right way to handle it is to deal with your 'customers' politely (in public),
and complain about them behind closed doors.
If an old lady comes into KFC and says "What do you mean 6 dollars?
The combo used to be only 5 dollars and you're telling me it doesn't even come with a side anymore?"
The person at the counter does their best to politely handle her and make her happy.
They don't loudly announce to the whole restaurant "Can someone explain to me why this
crazy old lady is giving me a hard time about the clearly posted prices that everyone else pays?"
Then the thread just went downhill from there with DB and KG airing all sorts of dirty laundry publicly.
If there's a simple misunderstanding or disagreement about how to handle business,
it immediately becomes ten times more hostile and tougher to fix, by posting it publicly.
To be blunt, you guys seem to be under the false impression that as long as you
carefully word your posts, make sure there are no misspellings,
and don't call anyone a shithead, you're being professionals.
As well-spoken as you both are, pretty much all of your posts in this thread
are *completely* unprofessional. I wince when I read some of this stuff.
This should have been said privately or not at all.
The tone of the original post reads like:
"Can someone explain to me why my potential customers/employees are so irrational?
Clearly when you compare my product to this other guy's, mine is just as good if not better.
But they act like it's worse, and keep telling me I need to improve or they won't go with mine.
What they're asking for is obviously BS... Do these guys have some nerve or what?"
I can understand the need to vent and the need for a sympathetic ear,
but the right way to handle it is to deal with your 'customers' politely (in public),
and complain about them behind closed doors.
If an old lady comes into KFC and says "What do you mean 6 dollars?
The combo used to be only 5 dollars and you're telling me it doesn't even come with a side anymore?"
The person at the counter does their best to politely handle her and make her happy.
They don't loudly announce to the whole restaurant "Can someone explain to me why this
crazy old lady is giving me a hard time about the clearly posted prices that everyone else pays?"
Then the thread just went downhill from there with DB and KG airing all sorts of dirty laundry publicly.
If there's a simple misunderstanding or disagreement about how to handle business,
it immediately becomes ten times more hostile and tougher to fix, by posting it publicly.
To be blunt, you guys seem to be under the false impression that as long as you
carefully word your posts, make sure there are no misspellings,
and don't call anyone a shithead, you're being professionals.
As well-spoken as you both are, pretty much all of your posts in this thread
are *completely* unprofessional. I wince when I read some of this stuff.
This should have been said privately or not at all.