Can this be called a saw machine??

P

Pancerny

Mike Pancerny
Silver Member
After all the discussion about saw machines, I came across a small carving saw designed for rotary tools. I had to make a shaft to hold the tool in my router since my router will only hold tolls with 1/4" shaft and this blade came with a 1/8" shaft. I was thinking that the reason shaft saw machines cut so nicely is because of the number of cuts in 1 rotation of the blade, the more cuts, the nicer the finish on the shaft which means less sanding....

I spin this at full speed in the router mounted on one of my lathes.
Still need to support the shaft a little by hand, especially when cutting in the middle when chatter can cause the shaft to push away a little from the cutting tool.

A saw machine is probably better but this may serve it's purpose until I have the money to buy one and a place to put it.
 

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I've seen one like that with a variable speed router with a 1/2 collet.
It's still a router.
The saw machines use a flat ground 60-tooth ( or more ) 10" saw blade.
 
Just make sure you don't use one any thicker.
It will move way too much air and push the wood away.
A thin kerf 3 wing cutter or a 3/4" straight bit is just as good as long as you slow the feed rate down.
It's not like you can't find something else to do while it's running :p :D

Jon
 
Did anyone ever try a biscuit jointer blade mounted on a router? If you cut the router speed to about 10,000 RPM, and grind the biscuit blade flat, I think it might work as well as a saw machine. What are your thoughts....
 
Mike,

The tool that you are using does not have a releif on the sides of the cutting edges. In fact, that blade does not intend for the sides to cut at all. When you use a rotating blade to cut a rotating shaft, the blade is cutting a slot, but the slot is rotating at the same time. The result is a slot that is at an angle to the blade itself. Therefore, some of the cut must be done by the side edge of the blade. Obviously the feed rate, RPM of the shaft, and the tip speed of the blade are all factors as to how much releif the side of the blade must have. I have had much better luck with an actual slot cutter with carbide teeth. Each tooth has an edge, and a slight relief to it.

I build a new shaft called the OB-1 cue shaft. In doing so, I must turn flat laminated maple squares that are 31" long and .625" square to a final diameter of .562" before they can be assembled into my shaft blank. Turning something that long down to that small of a dowel requires cutting with no vibration at all. I use both a router in a single spindle CNC machine and also Blud's 4 spindle CNC saw lathe. Both work very well. The advantage that Blud's machine has, besides cutting 4 at a time, is that the radius of the blade being so large means that I can use a feed rate much higher and still get a smooth cut. I actually remove stock on the first pass on these squares at a feed lead of .200" per revolution. The blade moves that far for each rotation of the work piece, but there is minimal threading because of the large radius of the blade. All this is done with no vibration because the teeth on the saw blade have cutting edges on the sides with relief. On my router, I can only cut with a lead of about .07". The higher router tip speed does allow me to turn the work faster though, and that leads to higher feed speeds, but still not as fast as Blud's machine at .200" lead.

You can see some pictures of this work on my website in the construction page.

http://www.obcues.com

I still recommend using a blade that has cutting edges on the side of the blade tip. This combined with the right stock RPM and feed rates and you should not have to tend your shafts during the cut. They should come off of your machine ready for finishing.

I do use that blade that you have, but I use it for a cut off tool. I mount it in a rotary tool hand piece, and mount it on my lathe with the blade perpendicular to the work piece. I can cut off ring material very thin with it.


Royce Bunnell
Owen Bunnell Inc.
 
RBC said:
Mike,

The tool that you are using does not have a releif on the sides of the cutting edges. In fact, that blade does not intend for the sides to cut at all. When you use a rotating blade to cut a rotating shaft, the blade is cutting a slot, but the slot is rotating at the same time. The result is a slot that is at an angle to the blade itself. Therefore, some of the cut must be done by the side edge of the blade. Obviously the feed rate, RPM of the shaft, and the tip speed of the blade are all factors as to how much releif the side of the blade must have. I have had much better luck with an actual slot cutter with carbide teeth. Each tooth has an edge, and a slight relief to it.

I build a new shaft called the OB-1 cue shaft. In doing so, I must turn flat laminated maple squares that are 31" long and .625" square to a final diameter of .562" before they can be assembled into my shaft blank. Turning something that long down to that small of a dowel requires cutting with no vibration at all. I use both a router in a single spindle CNC machine and also Blud's 4 spindle CNC saw lathe. Both work very well. The advantage that Blud's machine has, besides cutting 4 at a time, is that the radius of the blade being so large means that I can use a feed rate much higher and still get a smooth cut. I actually remove stock on the first pass on these squares at a feed lead of .200" per revolution. The blade moves that far for each rotation of the work piece, but there is minimal threading because of the large radius of the blade. All this is done with no vibration because the teeth on the saw blade have cutting edges on the sides with relief. On my router, I can only cut with a lead of about .07". The higher router tip speed does allow me to turn the work faster though, and that leads to higher feed speeds, but still not as fast as Blud's machine at .200" lead.

You can see some pictures of this work on my website in the construction page.

http://www.obcues.com

I still recommend using a blade that has cutting edges on the side of the blade tip. This combined with the right stock RPM and feed rates and you should not have to tend your shafts during the cut. They should come off of your machine ready for finishing.

I do use that blade that you have, but I use it for a cut off tool. I mount it in a rotary tool hand piece, and mount it on my lathe with the blade perpendicular to the work piece. I can cut off ring material very thin with it.


Royce Bunnell
Owen Bunnell Inc.
Click to expand...



I have some of those blades also, Mine are made in Germany, and may be smaller, not sure. I have 2 types. One is coarser and the other is a fine tooth blade. I use them for ringwork also, as they cut very thin rings out. The only thing I don't like is the 1/8 arbor/mandrel seems kind of small to me, so may make a beefier one to mount the blade in, but then I would need to use a rotary tool with 1/4 collet in place of the 1/8.

Greg
 
TellsItLikeItIs said:
What kind of router are you using Mike?
Click to expand...

I'm using a small Ryobi trim router.
Joe Porper sells the router holder and router for his Model B lathe, which I own.
Just adapted it to fit my Clausing that I cut butts and shafts on.
You can see the router and holder on my shop tour.
I bought an extra router holder from him for $70, and it's well worth it since it's all metal.

www.customcuemaker.com/shoptour.htm

Mike
 
RBC said:
Mike,

You can see some pictures of this work on my website in the construction page.

http://www.obcues.com

Royce Bunnell
Owen Bunnell Inc.
Click to expand...

Interesting design...I've made shafts with the flat laminated stock as well and they always seem very heavy because of the amount of glue between the layers.
Do the shafts end up very heavy when your complete?
Mike

P.S. I thought the kerf was ground flat on shaft saw machine blades.
I still think I want a saw machine, just don't have the money for one right now....hopefully one day soon.....
 
Pancerny said:
I'm using a small Ryobi trim router.
Joe Porper sells the router holder and router for his Model B lathe, which I own.
Just adapted it to fit my Clausing that I cut butts and shafts on.
You can see the router and holder on my shop tour.
I bought an extra router holder from him for $70, and it's well worth it since it's all metal.
www.customcuemaker.com/shoptour.htm
Mike
Click to expand...
Pretty neat set up Mike. You obviously put a lot of thought into your machinery.

By the way, your shop is absolutely TOO clean! Sprinkle some wood shavings on that new Grizzly will ya :-)
 
Pancerny said:
Interesting design...I've made shafts with the flat laminated stock as well and they always seem very heavy because of the amount of glue between the layers.
Do the shafts end up very heavy when your complete?
Mike

Is that what the foam core is for, to reduce weight or does It serve another purpose as well? I would think the less plys used the less glue, thus less weight, but that may be a give & take in deflection with standard flats, altough this design, and a few others i have seen might cancel them out somewhat.
The design is interesting, and I can see where It would be radially consistent, but seems like alot of time & material with basically 6 blanks to make one shaft. Can't put a price on quality though. The laminated maple ferrule is interesting also, altough not sure how I feel about that unless they are treated and vacumed or something, but that's just personal preference. I am very curious to how they feel & play though.

BTW Nice setup you have mike.

Greg
Click to expand...
 
Mike,

I have studied this issue in depth. The blades used on my saw machine do have a relief behind the leading edge. Its not much, but at the speeds these blades move it is enough. The tip of the router slot cutter moves at 188,000 inches per minute, and the saw moves at 108,000 ipm. I can turn the shaft at a faster RPM with the router because of the tip speed, but because of the blade diameter the feed rate can be higher with the saw. The teeth do not spend alot of time in the wood, but it is long enough that the side edges must cut.

As far as the weight of my shafts go, they actually come in slightly lighter than some shafts due to the hole in the center. The hole is filled with a vibration dampening foam rubber all the way to 4" from the tip. The last 4" is all wood. The blank itself is very stiff, so I use a long taper on it. The shaft will spin the ball like crazy, but does not feel whippy like you would expect.


Greg,

I get my blades like that from Grizzly. $2.95 each and they come in all different thicknesses, bores and diameters. They are high speed steel, so when they get dull I just throw them away.

The foam actually adds some weight back in the shaft after the hole is bored. It does serve a very important purpose though, it dampens linear vibration. Lateral vibration is transmitted just as with any shaft, but Linear vibration is almost non existent. Linear vibration is what gives the "ping" associated with many cues. Any cue with an OB-1 cue shaft will hit very "solid". Its kind of funny. We set out to build a low deflection shaft, which we did because the OB-1 shafts deflection is virtually equal to any 12.75mm shaft, but the thing most people talk about when hitting with one is how good it feels. The foam plays a big part in this.

There are alot of steps in its construction, but thats what it takes, and Blud's 4 saw machine helps a bunch.

The ferrule is made up in a block of laminated veneers of maple. The grain of each layer is clocked 45 degrees from the one under it. The stack is glued and clamped under extreme pressure so that there are no voids. One block makes many ferrules, so that helps out on the time.

Hope that helps.

Royce Bunnell
Owen Bunnell Inc.
 
RBC said:
Mike,

I have studied this issue in depth. The blades used on my saw machine do have a relief behind the leading edge. Its not much, but at the speeds these blades move it is enough. The tip of the router slot cutter moves at 188,000 inches per minute, and the saw moves at 108,000 ipm. I can turn the shaft at a faster RPM with the router because of the tip speed, but because of the blade diameter the feed rate can be higher with the saw. The teeth do not spend alot of time in the wood, but it is long enough that the side edges must cut.

As far as the weight of my shafts go, they actually come in slightly lighter than some shafts due to the hole in the center. The hole is filled with a vibration dampening foam rubber all the way to 4" from the tip. The last 4" is all wood. The blank itself is very stiff, so I use a long taper on it. The shaft will spin the ball like crazy, but does not feel whippy like you would expect.


Greg,

I get my blades like that from Grizzly. $2.95 each and they come in all different thicknesses, bores and diameters. They are high speed steel, so when they get dull I just throw them away.

The foam actually adds some weight back in the shaft after the hole is bored. It does serve a very important purpose though, it dampens linear vibration. Lateral vibration is transmitted just as with any shaft, but Linear vibration is almost non existent. Linear vibration is what gives the "ping" associated with many cues. Any cue with an OB-1 cue shaft will hit very "solid". Its kind of funny. We set out to build a low deflection shaft, which we did because the OB-1 shafts deflection is virtually equal to any 12.75mm shaft, but the thing most people talk about when hitting with one is how good it feels. The foam plays a big part in this.

There are alot of steps in its construction, but thats what it takes, and Blud's 4 saw machine helps a bunch.

The ferrule is made up in a block of laminated veneers of maple. The grain of each layer is clocked 45 degrees from the one under it. The stack is glued and clamped under extreme pressure so that there are no voids. One block makes many ferrules, so that helps out on the time.

Hope that helps.

Royce Bunnell
Owen Bunnell Inc.
Click to expand...

very neat concept, how many proto's before settling on your design?

how thick are the venneer you begin with?

thanks john.
 
RBC said:
Mike,

I have studied this issue in depth. The blades used on my saw machine do have a relief behind the leading edge. Its not much, but at the speeds these blades move it is enough. The tip of the router slot cutter moves at 188,000 inches per minute, and the saw moves at 108,000 ipm. I can turn the shaft at a faster RPM with the router because of the tip speed, but because of the blade diameter the feed rate can be higher with the saw. The teeth do not spend alot of time in the wood, but it is long enough that the side edges must cut.

As far as the weight of my shafts go, they actually come in slightly lighter than some shafts due to the hole in the center. The hole is filled with a vibration dampening foam rubber all the way to 4" from the tip. The last 4" is all wood. The blank itself is very stiff, so I use a long taper on it. The shaft will spin the ball like crazy, but does not feel whippy like you would expect.


Greg,

I get my blades like that from Grizzly. $2.95 each and they come in all different thicknesses, bores and diameters. They are high speed steel, so when they get dull I just throw them away.

The foam actually adds some weight back in the shaft after the hole is bored. It does serve a very important purpose though, it dampens linear vibration. Lateral vibration is transmitted just as with any shaft, but Linear vibration is almost non existent. Linear vibration is what gives the "ping" associated with many cues. Any cue with an OB-1 cue shaft will hit very "solid". Its kind of funny. We set out to build a low deflection shaft, which we did because the OB-1 shafts deflection is virtually equal to any 12.75mm shaft, but the thing most people talk about when hitting with one is how good it feels. The foam plays a big part in this.

There are alot of steps in its construction, but thats what it takes, and Blud's 4 saw machine helps a bunch.

The ferrule is made up in a block of laminated veneers of maple. The grain of each layer is clocked 45 degrees from the one under it. The stack is glued and clamped under extreme pressure so that there are no voids. One block makes many ferrules, so that helps out on the time.

Hope that helps.

Royce Bunnell
Owen Bunnell Inc.
Click to expand...


Thanks,
So the foam really dampens the shaft that much huh, I've seen simular done, and did'nt see the weight being that big of a change, so thought there must have been something more along those lines to the idea. Makes more since to me now.
So they're pressed tight enough that no problems with the ferrules swelling, problems changing tips, compression, or anything along those lines? I was wondering how possibly impregnating them with some kind of resin would effect It, If there were a way to do that. Looks like you've incorperated alot of ideas in one shaft with a couple being unique to it. I don't think I've seen them all used in one shaft before. Must say they do strike My interest & looks like a cool idea. Have you started selling them yet? If so, wondering what the retail is or will be?

Thanks for the tip on the blades also, I'll check them out, different thicknesses has me wondering if they could also be used for cutting thinner slots possibly. some of the thin endmills break really easily, and they cost more.

Greg
 
Merrylane,

Thank you.

I have been working on it with my business partner Don Owen for the last 4 years or so. We met playing in the Southwest Eight Ball League here in Dallas and began throwing out ideas for a new cue shaft. We started selling them locally in May, after our patent application was accepted. We are currently patent pending.

We start with flat laminated maple that is made up of 1/16th veneers. You can see what they look like on the construction page of our website.

http://www.obcues.com

Royce Bunnell
Owen Bunnell Inc.
 
Greg,

The foam primarily dampens linear vibrations. These linear vibrations are what causes the "ping" that some shafts have. It doens't really affect the lateral vibrations which is your feedback. You need those to tell how you hit it.

Early on we used epoxy for the ferrule blocks. It worked pretty good, but the epoxy soaked into the ferrule and made it very heavy. For maple that is. Our ferrule is just barely heavier than solid maple with the glue that we now use.

Changing tips is just like any other shaft. We do use a special pad so you should not remove it. It can be replaced if it is cut away afer many retippings. If a cue repair person needs some for this reason we would be glad to supply them with some.

We have had them in play for a couple of years and had no problems with swelling or compressing.

They are competitively priced at $220.00 list. We usually have a special going for 20% off which is $176.00.

Royce Bunnell
Owen Bunnell Inc.

www.obcues.com
 
I always liked to idea of a radial shaft (popularized by the Predator aboriginees) but liked the idea of the flat laminated material to get some really nice dense stuff to work with. Wonder if anyone has tried a radially laminated shaft using sheets of the flat laminated maple???

That might be interesting....

Mike
 
Pancerny said:
I always liked to idea of a radial shaft (popularized by the Predator aboriginees) but liked the idea of the flat laminated material to get some really nice dense stuff to work with. Wonder if anyone has tried a radially laminated shaft using sheets of the flat laminated maple???

That might be interesting....

Mike
Click to expand...

I've seen a shaft with flat lamanated maple that was then radially assembled in quarters....I'll post a link soon but I need to get ready for a tournament....
________
 
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blades

Jon said:
Just make sure you don't use one any thicker.
It will move way too much air and push the wood away.
A thin kerf 3 wing cutter or a 3/4" straight bit is just as good as long as you slow the feed rate down.
It's not like you can't find something else to do while it's running :p :D

Jon
Click to expand...
Hey Jon, Your correct about air push off. To many teeth, [more than 60] in my opinion, will cause a great deal of air-push-off, making the shaft smaller and not so smooth.

Over the years, I done a lot of testing of blades and many things we all use everday. A blade with a wide kerf is bad, even if it's got 40 teeth, it's got much AIR push-off. 60 teeth seems to be the magic number for me.

Have the blade ground with as much rake and reliefe as possible. No set on either side, just straight sides and flat top. Cuts much cleaner, and gets rid of the chips easier. Rotation of the product, feed-rate, and RPM's of the blade, means a lot. Get these 3 items working right, and keep on,, keepin on.
blud
 
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