Can't stay down.

[measureman]

I have a no miss cure for jumping up.
Have someone hold a cattle prod 6 inches from your back on every shot.
In no time you will stop jumping up.
Problem solved.
Next question?

 

[Imac007]

Either Mental or Physical.

Mental and physical rehearsal are the answer.
It starts with a mindset.
A calm deliberate stroke starts with a calm mindset.
What does the body look and feel like in the finish position of your ideal self?
What starting mindset enables that to occur as a natural outcome?
What physical state goes with both the start and finish?

 

[Ratta]

This can have of course several "reasons" -and as Randy said, mental or physical.

From my expirience the most critical point is trust and self-believe-- that may sound strange for "some players".
But what I can assure to almost everyone: Let s video one guy (or more ) who are coming up on every stroke.
I video the student/player always as soon they/we want to work on this issue-- Important is, that they first see themselves, that they are REALLY jumping up/coming up during their stroke. so far so good.

What is funny: After that i ll just setup the cueball (without a object ball!) - and let them shoot just the cueball into a pocket-- And suddenly in the very most cases, they will stay down like a statue. ( and from my expirience even if they re not standing like a statue-- there will be a significant positive change/difference).

So the personal eye pattern is important- and with this example/experiment it should be also clear, that the self-beliefe is mega important, too!! As soon as they just have to shoot a cueball into the pocket, they have no fear- no doubt.

This is often an eye opener for a player/student- and they understand, that they have to LEARN to trust themselves.

Hope I was clear enough to explain the idea and sense of this example

have a nice day everyone.

 

[brigeton]

This can have of course several "reasons" -and as Randy said, mental or physical.

From my expirience the most critical point is trust and self-believe-- that may sound strange for "some players".
But what I can assure to almost everyone: Let s video one guy (or more ) who are coming up on every stroke.
I video the student/player always as soon they/we want to work on this issue-- Important is, that they first see themselves, that they are REALLY jumping up/coming up during their stroke. so far so good.

What is funny: After that i ll just setup the cueball (without a object ball!) - and let them shoot just the cueball into a pocket-- And suddenly in the very most cases, they will stay down like a statue. ( and from my expirience even if they re not standing like a statue-- there will be a significant positive change/difference).

So the personal eye pattern is important- and with this example/experiment it should be also clear, that the self-beliefe is mega important, too!! As soon as they just have to shoot a cueball into the pocket, they have no fear- no doubt.

This is often an eye opener for a player/student- and they understand, that they have to LEARN to trust themselves.

Hope I was clear enough to explain the idea and sense of this example

have a nice day everyone.

I definitely feel like this is my problem. I stay still on the easy shots but on longer shots when I need to stay still the most is when I jump. If I tell myself that if I stay still I will make that long shot most of the time I do. I've been working on it & getting better.

 

[straightline]

Get your chin on the stick and just roll the cue ball around the table.

 

[Dan White]

I definitely feel like this is my problem. I stay still on the easy shots but on longer shots when I need to stay still the most is when I jump. If I tell myself that if I stay still I will make that long shot most of the time I do. I've been working on it & getting better.

Some people have kind of alluded to something but haven't explicitly stated it. One reason people pop up is nervousness about the result of the shot. The fact that you do this more on difficult shots indicates that you are too stressed about the outcome of the shot. Mark Wilson talks about how the goal should be more oriented toward performing each shot correctly and not on the outcome of the shot. I had another instructor early on who was kind of a Zen Master and for him the game was about paying more attention to your mechanics than on whether the ball is pocketed. I know this sounds counter intuitive but if you perform every shot correctly then the natural outcome is a pocketed ball. So, you don't have to pay so much attention to the result because it should go in.

I also had a wise instructor named Fran one time. She said that it is on the difficult shots where you really have to bear down and execute correctly. The way I've interpreted that over the years is the more difficult the shot the more you have to remember to relax and treat it like any other shot instead of tensing up. Tension is a killer.

I guess what I'm saying is to make the game more about doing everything right for each shot and ask yourself if you succeeded or not. This is separate from whether the ball went in. A shot where the ball is pocketed but your mechanics were off is a failed shot.

 

[Imac007]

A shot where the ball is pocketed but your mechanics were off is a failed shot.

The point of good mechanics is they produce a good result a higher percentage of time.
Someone has decided what those good mechanics look like but dismissing results isn’t an answer.
The Fosbury flop didn’t fit the mold of good mechanics at the time.
You need to let your results and outcomes determine your personal guidelines for performing at your best.
Base mechanics are just guidelines and a good place to start.
Inventiveness is part of the shot process and often violates the precepts on which a single mechanics perspective is built.
Knowing when it’s best for you to draw outside lines that someone else has drawn, is often where progress occurs.
Thinking inside the box or outside we need to ask who drew the box boundaries.
Whatever works works, how good and how often, is the personal journey.
Be your own judge, draw your own boundaries, color however you want, inside or outside the lines, and have fun.
Remember you get to draw the lines.

 

[Dan White]

The point of good mechanics is they produce a good result a higher percentage of time.
Someone has decided what those good mechanics look like but dismissing results isn’t an answer.
The Fosbury flop didn’t fit the mold of good mechanics at the time.
You need to let your results and outcomes determine your personal guidelines for performing at your best.
Base mechanics are just guidelines and a good place to start.
Inventiveness is part of the shot process and often violates the precepts on which a single mechanics perspective is built.
Knowing when it’s best for you to draw outside lines that someone else has drawn, is often where progress occurs.
Thinking inside the box or outside we need to ask who drew the box boundaries.
Whatever works works, how good and how often, is the personal journey.
Be your own judge, draw your own boundaries, color however you want, inside or outside the lines, and have fun.
Remember you get to draw the lines.

I agree with all that and it is not inconsistent with what I said. The point is not to be satisfied simply because the ball goes in. If you made the shot using mechanics that you know are wrong for you then it is a failed attempt. The other day I hit a 14.1 break shot and the object ball missed the pocket. But then it caromed off another ball and got kissed back into the pocket. So I made the ball after all. The shot was legal and allowed me to continue the run but it is not a shot I should accept as a success.

 

[Imac007]

I agree with all that and it is not inconsistent with what I said. The point is not to be satisfied simply because the ball goes in. If you made the shot using mechanics that you know are wrong for you then it is a failed attempt. The other day I hit a 14.1 break shot and the object ball missed the pocket. But then it caromed off another ball and got kissed back into the pocket. So I made the ball after all. The shot was legal and allowed me to continue the run but it is not a shot I should accept as a success.

That issue extends to the mental side as well.
I see players picking bad patterns and still getting out, getting rewarded for bad decisions.
Same with safety vs aggressive play, going for it, on poor percentages, and needing an opponent miss or two, after missing, to get back into the game and ending up winning.
Bad choices are bad decisions and as my buddy sez “you can’t fix stupid”.
The point made earlier about player anxiety is often about not being sure of what is right and the uncertainty causes the jumping up.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Repeating as I have elsewhere, you can move on the shot if you move with the shot--down and forward, with the stroke line.

Most "jumpers" think they don't move or barely move. Letting someone rest a cue stick in your hair will show you the truth and correct the problem in minutes. (Unfortunately, unlike golf, tennis, etc. most pool shooter avoid getting help from anyone else/lessons/listen to the wrong "teachers" at the pool hall who know little and play badly.)

 

[FranCrimi]

I agree with all that and it is not inconsistent with what I said. The point is not to be satisfied simply because the ball goes in. If you made the shot using mechanics that you know are wrong for you then it is a failed attempt. The other day I hit a 14.1 break shot and the object ball missed the pocket. But then it caromed off another ball and got kissed back into the pocket. So I made the ball after all. The shot was legal and allowed me to continue the run but it is not a shot I should accept as a success.

Dan, as you know, there's a difference between making a shot and having it go in accidentally. Of course the accidental one is a fail, but making it with mechanics that aren't up to a player's standards is still a successful shot. If it happened to me, I'd make a mental note to continue to work on my mechanics, but there comes a point of being too critical about yourself that becomes detrimental to your game. I've done it myself, and it can make your head spin to the point where you lose confidence when you really shouldn't. It's never as bad as we think it is.

 

[HawaiianEye]

That issue extends to the mental side as well.
I see players picking bad patterns and still getting out, getting rewarded for bad decisions.
Same with safety vs aggressive play, going for it, on poor percentages, and needing an opponent miss or two, after missing, to get back into the game and ending up winning.
Bad choices are bad decisions and as my buddy sez “you can’t fix stupid”.
The point made earlier about player anxiety is often about not being sure of what is right and the uncertainty causes the jumping up.

Some people prefer certain patterns over others.

As long as it consistently works, for YOU, then it is not necessarily a bad pattern.

Some players play simple patterns, some play more difficult patterns.

If they both shoot at the same level, who is to say one is better than the other?

 

[Imac007]

Some people prefer certain patterns over others.

As long as it consistently works, for YOU, then it is not necessarily a bad pattern.

Some players play simple patterns, some play more difficult patterns.

If they both shoot at the same level, who is to say one is better than the other?

My criteria for a bad pattern often relates to the choices.
The Buddy Hall idea of why are you playing shape when you already have it is an example.
Bob Jewett also pointed out that players often choose a path that even Effren can’t pull off.
Not knowing the true possible route can trick the imagination.
If you start with a presumption that follow is easier than draw, then you will choose accordingly.
As an ex-snooker player, I use more stun, ball routes using draw and stun off multiple rails than they do.
That said, I use the path that takes balls out of play and away from traffic rather than into potential trouble.
If balls all have pockets and paths to get position, I don’t choose any shot that moves them or might move them, except to possibly simplify, in a very controlled way.

 

[HawaiianEye]

My criteria for a bad pattern often relates to the choices.
The Buddy Hall idea of why are you playing shape when you already have it is an example.
Bob Jewett also pointed out that players often choose a path that even Effren can’t pull off.
Not knowing the true possible route can trick the imagination.
If you start with a presumption that follow is easier than draw, then you will choose accordingly.
As an ex-snooker player, I use more stun, ball routes using draw and stun off multiple rails than they do.
That said, I use the path that takes balls out of play and away from traffic rather than into potential trouble.
If balls all have pockets and paths to get position, I don’t choose any shot that moves them or might move them, except to possibly simplify, in a very controlled way.

I do not move balls intentionally unless that is my desire.

I know what I can and cannot do with the cue ball based upon paths I have shot uncountable times over the years

I sometimes use patterns that other people do not even see, much less try to navigate even if they saw them. This is usually done while playing rotation-type pool where you have to travel longer distances or between balls Or go multiple rails.

 

[Dan White]

Dan, as you know, there's a difference between making a shot and having it go in accidentally. Of course the accidental one is a fail, but making it with mechanics that aren't up to a player's standards is still a successful shot. If it happened to me, I'd make a mental note to continue to work on my mechanics, but there comes a point of being too critical about yourself that becomes detrimental to your game. I've done it myself, and it can make your head spin to the point where you lose confidence when you really shouldn't. It's never as bad as we think it is.

I agree completely and thanks for the thoughts. This thread has meandered a bit and my comments are being taken out of context. My original point is that WHEN PRACTICING the fact that the ball went in is not an indication that the stroke was successful and a pocketed ball here and there should not be the measure of success. It is certainly positive feedback but it should not be the pass/fail metric for a successful shot (as in playing with good mechanics). It's something Mark Wilson stresses, but it's also just common sense. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in that post.

OTOH if I make the money ball I don't care what my mechanics are doing! lol.

 

[Imac007]

OTOH if I make the money ball I don't care what my mechanics are doing! lol.

You should never feel bad about good luck or for that matter bad.
Focus on what we can control is all we can do.

 

[boogieman]

You should never feel bad about good luck or for that matter bad.
Focus on what we can control is all we can do.

The more I practice, the luckier I get.