Can't teach this old dog new tricks

Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
Eleven days ago I stopped reading aiming threads and put all my dvd’s and books away and just went back to aiming the way I did for 50-60 years. After a day or so I started hitting more center pockets and making a better percentage of long cut-shots, long banks, and my position has come back a lot.

I know I’ve learned some things from the many books, dvd’s, and from here on AZ over the past year or so. In the long run it’s been a trade off for me. I learned a lot of “WHY” things work and why QB and OB acts the way they do on certain shots, which helped me see a lot more shots that come up that will work the same way. But as far as pocking balls better, the systems helped at first, but then I would get slowly worse as I practiced the drills that came with them less and less. I hate drills and always have. I always just remembered the shots I was missing the last few days and practiced them until I could make them a good % of the time.

I think there is benefit to a lot of the different systems for players just starting out or just can’t judge where the aiming point is. I don’t hang with any of the top players of today, but I did hang around with some of the best around 15 to 25 years ago and none of them had an aiming system that they could define other than feel. Johnnyt
 
You can't mess with natural ability !

It's kinda like tring to fool mother nature. For those of us that are lucky enough to have it messing with all the aiming systems and stuff will just do harm to the talent you are born with !

Words can't explain what natural ability is.:cool:
 
You are a hunnerd percent correct Johnny, and the story you just told is the very reason I have always recommended that a person should not buy golf magazines.
The analogy of golf magazines to pool playing, of course, is the constant barrage of swing tips found in the magazines which only serves to keep the subconscious mind in a state of confusion resulting in a golf swing that is always in a state of flux. Aiming methods, and useless and endless drills contribute to the subconscious confusion of a pool player in the same manner. :smile:
 
The goal of all aiming systems is to put the cueball in the right spot on the object ball when they strike. There has been a name for this for a long time.
If it can be called a system everybody uses it whether they realize it or not.
(This old dog got my flame proof suit on)
 
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I see a lot of value in the books and instructional material out there that teach the mechanics and rational of different strokes to achieve different things. Things like throw and explaining english on banks are things that are hard to observe just through experience because they can be counter-intuitive. However, books and instructional material that focus on aiming systems can be misleading because a lot of them over simplify a complex process that can only be learned through experience. If you break aim down to just where the QB hits the OB you are forgetting about a lot of external factors like wind, curvature of the earth, gravity based on altitude, that can only be figured out through experience.
 
Tramp Steamer said:
You are a hunnerd percent correct Johnny, and the story you just told is the very reason I have always recommended that a person should not buy golf magazines.
The analogy of golf magazines to pool playing, of course, is the constant barrage of swing tips found in the magazines which only serves to keep the subconscious mind in a state of confusion resulting in a golf swing that is always in a state of flux. Aiming methods, and useless and endless drills contribute to the subconscious confusion of a pool player in the same manner. :smile:
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I dont know the recent statistics but as of 10 years ago compared to ten years before that, with the explosion of all the golf magazines and lessons, the average handicap was no better than it was.

With the better clubs and other equipment nowadays maybe things have changed a bit for the better but still i wouldnt bet on it.
 
I notice this a lot

Johnnyt said:
Eleven days ago I stopped reading aiming threads and put all my dvd’s and books away and just went back to aiming the way I did for 50-60 years. After a day or so I started hitting more center pockets and making a better percentage of long cut-shots, long banks, and my position has come back a lot.

I know I’ve learned some things from the many books, dvd’s, and from here on AZ over the past year or so. In the long run it’s been a trade off for me. I learned a lot of “WHY” things work and why QB and OB acts the way they do on certain shots, which helped me see a lot more shots that come up that will work the same way. But as far as pocking balls better, the systems helped at first, but then I would get slowly worse as I practiced the drills that came with them less and less. I hate drills and always have. I always just remembered the shots I was missing the last few days and practiced them until I could make them a good % of the time.

I think there is benefit to a lot of the different systems for players just starting out or just can’t judge where the aiming point is. I don’t hang with any of the top players of today, but I did hang around with some of the best around 15 to 25 years ago and none of them had an aiming system that they could define other than feel. Johnnyt
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Johnny,

I think it is a little like the Peter Principle and everyone rising to their level of incompetence. We rise to a certain level and essentially move laterally from there. We make one "improvement" after another, find all kinds of new and better ways to do things, and in a few years of these constant improvements we should be playing much better pool as all of these things add up. Right? Wrong for many of us because we had already maxed out our capabilities using methods that might have taken us longer to get to the same place but eventually brought us to the same place that instruction or different techniques would have.

Pick the top twenty in the world. Seems most of them shoot differently than the instructors are trying to teach. The instructors certainly can shorten the learning curve but ultimately every player that devotes themselves to the game eventually reaches their highest level for all practical purposes. There might be a tiny gain here and there such as learning a new way to beat a double hit but your game has essentially peaked. You are at or very near the limits of your mental and physical abilities and nothing is going to make a lot of difference.

More and more I feel that over 90% of my efforts to learn substantially different ways of doing things over the last four or five years were wasted efforts and my time would have been far better spent polishing on my old game.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
Johnny,

I think it is a little like the Peter Principle and everyone rising to their level of incompetence. We rise to a certain level and essentially move laterally from there. We make one "improvement" after another, find all kinds of new and better ways to do things, and in a few years of these constant improvements we should be playing much better pool as all of these things add up. Right? Wrong for many of us because we had already maxed out our capabilities using methods that might have taken us longer to get to the same place but eventually brought us to the same place that instruction or different techniques would have.

Pick the top twenty in the world. Seems most of them shoot differently than the instructors are trying to teach. The instructors certainly can shorten the learning curve but ultimately every player that devotes themselves to the game eventually reaches their highest level for all practical purposes. There might be a tiny gain here and there such as learning a new way to beat a double hit but your game has essentially peaked. You are at or very near the limits of your mental and physical abilities and nothing is going to make a lot of difference.

More and more I feel that over 90% of my efforts to learn substantially different ways of doing things over the last four or five years were wasted efforts and my time would have been far better spent polishing on my old game.

Hu
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I have to agree with you here, I'm sorry to say. I believe I have/had peaked on my shot making a long time ago. But I feel there is still one thing to practice for most players to bring their game up some more, and that's pin-point position, thinking three ahead (at least), checking the table after you make one on the break to plan your runout, and most important to always try to get on the right side of the next ball so you need very little to no side-spin for position on the next ball. Do all these things good and you won't have too many hard shots to worry about. Most of us can bare down for that one hard shot in 20 or 30 and make it. But hard shots every 5 will get you in the end. Johnnyt
 
K Knight said:
I see a lot of value in the books and instructional material out there that teach the mechanics and rational of different strokes to achieve different things. Things like throw and explaining english on banks are things that are hard to observe just through experience because they can be counter-intuitive. However, books and instructional material that focus on aiming systems can be misleading because a lot of them over simplify a complex process that can only be learned through experience. If you break aim down to just where the QB hits the OB you are forgetting about a lot of external factors like wind, curvature of the earth, gravity based on altitude, that can only be figured out through experience.
Click to expand...

K Knight said:
I see a lot of value in the books and instructional material out there that teach the mechanics and rational of different strokes to achieve different things. Things like throw and explaining english on banks are things that are hard to observe just through experience because they can be counter-intuitive. However, books and instructional material that focus on aiming systems can be misleading because a lot of them over simplify a complex process that can only be learned through experience. If you break aim down to just where the QB hits the OB you are forgetting about a lot of external factors like wind, curvature of the earth, gravity based on altitude, that can only be figured out through experience.
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:rotflmao1:
You can't ignore sun spots or solar wind either. Along with experience a Cray computer, although bulky, is of added benefit.
 
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yup!

Johnnyt said:
I have to agree with you here, I'm sorry to say. I believe I have/had peaked on my shot making a long time ago. But I feel there is still one thing to practice for most players to bring their game up some more, and that's pin-point position, thinking three ahead (at least), checking the table after you make one on the break to plan your runout, and most important to always try to get on the right side of the next ball so you need very little to no side-spin for position on the next ball. Do all these things good and you won't have too many hard shots to worry about. Most of us can bare down for that one hard shot in 20 or 30 and make it. But hard shots every 5 will get you in the end. Johnnyt
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Johnny,

What you are talking about here is using what you know and can do to best advantage. I have posted a bunch of times that I spent several years just working on cue ball control. Putting my main focus on cue ball control instead of making balls which I was doing anyway meant I had a lot easier shots to shoot at and it meant that my opponent almost always had a lot harder shots to shoot at. That is the kind of thing that ties opponents in knots and can't be measured by break and runs or playing the ghost.

What are you gonna do with your old worn out bar table when you upgrade? I'm thinking seriously about traveling full circle and going back to being maybe the luckiest bar room banger in the world.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
Johnny,

What you are talking about here is using what you know and can do to best advantage. I have posted a bunch of times that I spent several years just working on cue ball control. Putting my main focus on cue ball control instead of making balls which I was doing anyway meant I had a lot easier shots to shoot at and it meant that my opponent almost always had a lot harder shots to shoot at. That is the kind of thing that ties opponents in knots and can't be measured by break and runs or playing the ghost.

What are you gonna do with your old worn out bar table when you upgrade? I'm thinking seriously about traveling full circle and going back to being maybe the luckiest bar room banger in the world.

Hu
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Most likely I'll give it to boy's and girl's club or a school. I'll take the Ridgebacks off and give them to someone that has a Valley and wants for it to play better. I have to be careful what brand table I get. It needs to be commercial and be able to stand up to the weather like a Valley. Johnnyt
 
I think after 50 years you already know the aiming points. I think the problem was simply going from aiming subconciously to adding another concious consideration to the process, which is a step backwards in my opinion. You said you ran over a 100 before. You don't pocket 100 consecutive balls when there are some potting angles your unsure of.
 
Cameron Smith said:
I think after 50 years you already know the aiming points. I think the problem was simply going from aiming subconciously to adding another concious consideration to the process, which is a step backwards in my opinion. You said you ran over a 100 before. You don't pocket 100 consecutive balls when there are some potting angles your unsure of.
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Ran 80's twice back in the 1970's on 9' and 96 on 7' Valley with standard pockets and rails. I just got caught up in all the aiming threads and thought maybe I could do better with an aiming system. Most of my misses on my table are mental or shooting easy shots too fast before I really lock in on the aim point. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
Ran 80's twice back in the 1970's on 9' and 96 on 7' Valley with standard pockets and rails. I just got caught up in all the aiming threads and thought maybe I could do better with an aiming system. Most of my misses on my table are mental or shooting easy shots too fast before I really lock in on the aim point. Johnnyt
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I get ya. With all the hype every now and then you wonder if your missing something. But to be honest, it's very rare that I miss a shot and can't think of anything I did wrong (ie. jerky stroke, rushed set up, no follow through etc.)
 
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